Dear Stuart,
I interpreted what you wrote earlier as saying that gitterns/guiternes
and mandores were always essentially the same instrument - hence my
observation on inventories to point out that at least some Old Ones
recognised a significant enough difference to require seperate
accounting.
Apart from tuning, I presume at this time the physical difference
is shape (8) - as the Morlaye etc engravings show.
regards,
Martyn
--- On Fri, 25/1/13, WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
StrAmbotto
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 25 January, 2013, 9:06
On 25/01/2013 08:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
You write 'I still don't see why you think gitterns and mandores are
fundamentally different'
I think it's because they were referred to and identified as different
instruments at the time - such as in inventories (see my earlier)
regards
Martyn
Martyn
You mentioned these inventories:
1587 M. Lemaire: lists 3 guiternes; 8 mandores
1587 Claude Denis: 31 guiternes; 250(!) mandores
1589 Robert Denis 'le jeune': 37 guiternes; 156 mandores.
I thought that the 'guiternes' in these lists were referring to FOE
guitars (figure-of-eight). And FOE guitars obviously are very different
from lute-like mandores. But Pieter is saying that 'guiternes' (=small
lute-like things) were around at the time. Are you saying that the
'guiternes' mentioned in these inventories are FOE or lute-like? (!)
Stuart
--- On Thu, 24/1/13, WALSH STUART [1]<s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: WALSH STUART [2]<s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
StrAmbotto
To: [3]pie...@vantichelen.name
Cc: "Lutelist" [4]<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 24 January, 2013, 21:31
On 23/01/2013 07:54, Pieter Van Tichelen wrote:
> >Well I would be interested to read more of what you have found
out!
> I'm only too glad to tell but how much time have you got? ;) This
> really is my bread and butter so it's harder for me to stop than
start.
..........................................................
Nice bread and butter!
............................................
> but I've seen so many plucked string instrument names reused that I
don't really wonder about
> that any more. :)
.......................................................................
Yes indeed. This sort of thing drives some people mad. I think it's
fun.
...................................................................
>
> >> However, other contempary French sources use the same name for
the
> >> lute-like instrument too. (For example, Pierre Belon observes
in
> 1553 a
> >> certain lute-like instrument from Eastern Europe which he
compares
> to
> >> the "guiterne", thereby showing some characteristics that
point to
> the
> >> lute-shaped instrument, even pointing out it's made from one
piece
> of
> >> wood.
> >> An inventory at the death of Philippe de la Canessiere in 1551
> >> mentions "trois guiternes dont une `a unze cordes et les deux
> aultres
> >> petites" - 3 gitterns of which one with 11 strings and the
other two
> >> small; once more hinting that the old gittern hadn't vanished
just
> yet.
> >I don't follow this last bit, Pieter.
> The gittern by this time was really a small lute in most cases: a
5 or
> 6
> course instrument. I would very much doubt that a figure-8 shaped
> instrument "guitar" of that time would have 11 strings (unless by
> using three-string courses?). The two "small" ones might be
either
> "guitars" or "gitterns", there is just not enough information to
draw
> conclusions.
> >> Even in 1571, Maurice de la Porte still claims "la guiterne
est
> comme
> >> un diminutif du luth" - the gittern is a small lute.) If the
source
> is
> >> French and from after 1540, be careful as it might be either
for
> >> "guitar" or "gittern". Interestingly enough, some inventories
of
> >> instrument makers like the Denis builders seem to have tried
to make
> a
> >> distinction between a "guitarne" and a "guiterne" (where the
> guiterne
> >> has "fondz de lut" or a lute back). I therefore would place it
that
> a
> >> source putting an "a" guitar(n)e in France in the second half
of the
> >> 16th century is not referring to the lute-like instrument.
This
> however
> >> doesn't discount that there are numerous cases where the
figure-8
> >> shaped instrument was called guiterne in French sources of the
same
> >> period. It can however be a good guideline if come across that
> >> particular spelling with an "a". However in some cases even
this
> rule
> >> can't be followed, the inventory of yet another instrument
builder,
> >> Pierre Aubry in 1596, has "viels lucs de guitarne" -
suggesting the
> old
> >> lute-like gittern.
....................................
I wonder what the "lute-like instrument from Eastern Europe, Belon was
referring to in 1553.
You cite Belon, de la Porte and an inventory. Is there any iconography,
or are there any other references? I don't think I've come across
modern gittern players playing 16th century music. But it would seem
that the gittern, probably played with some sort of plectrum, would be
a reasonable possibility e.g.: for playing mid 16th c French dance
music? Gervaise?
.......................................................................
.....
> (In contrast, mandores are build
> abundantly.)
> In my interpretation of the facts known to me, the gittern
and mandore
> are not directly linked. They might share the same ancestor, and
> clearly
> it seems as though history has repeated itself... as the first
> mandores
> seem to again be one-piece of wood single-strung instrument like
the
> original lute-like gittern. But let me elaborate why I don't
believe
> the
> gittern to be the direct ancestor of the mandore.
> The gittern was derived from the rebec, as is clearly visible
from the
> first pictures (like those in the two manuscripts of the Cantigas
de
> Santa Maria who have gitterns). The only source that contests
this is
> Tinctoris who claims the Catalans invented the instrument (please
> remember that he wrote at least 3 centuries after the instrument
> first showed up).
> The mandore first shows up in the later 16th century and the
first
> sources are from the south of France (it reaches northern France
> only at the last quarter of the century).
> At that time the gittern is depicted with a lute back made of
ribs
> instead of cut out of one piece of wood, and strung with courses
> instead of single strings.
> The gitterns tuning by this time also is
> very
> similar to that of the lute (as far as we can tell),
.......................................................................
...........................
How do we know about the gittern's tuning in the 16th C?
.......................................................................
.........................
> whereas in the
> earlier
> sources it reflects the rebec origin (with fourths/fifths).
> The mandore however first starts off with the same
characteristics
> than the original gittern - one piece of wood or similar and
single
> strings,
> fourths/fifths tuning. Written sources often describe it "similar
to
> the rebec".
> I can't rule out that the mandore and gittern share some
ancestor, but
> a
> direct link seems improbably. Some sources contradict such a
theory
> directly: for example the introduction of the mandore print by Le
Roy
> (though lost quotes in other sources) states the origin is that
it was
> invented in Navarra and derived from a much larger instrument.
.......................................................................
..................................
I still don't see why you think gitterns and mandores are fundamentally
different: small lute-like things, both could be carved from solid or
built up. The mandore could be tuned in fourths (and top string
altered) or lute-like as in Skene. Are you mainly persuaded by Le Roy.
.......................................................................
.....................................................
> I find it also puzzling that the bandurria is never brought up in
> these
> discussions
.......................................................................
.......
It would be interesting to hear more about bandurrias. But for now,
what about Meucci and the chitarra italiana -- the Italian gittern?
.......................................................................
....................................................
> - it actually has the same tuning (the "old tuning"
> mentioned
> by Bermudo) than the mandore. Tinctoris mentions "banduerichen"
as one
> of the synonyms for the mandore. It's also not impossible that
the
> bandurria
> was invented or derived from that same instrument in Navarra and
> evolved
> in Spain to the bandurria and in France to the mandore. Though
all this
> is
> more speculation that something we can prove, it's a much more
logical
> link
> than the jump from gittern to mandore which is at least as
speculative.
> ;)
> At least the bandurria and mandore resembled each other -
outwardly as
> well as in tuning.
> Some other pecularities...
> The gittern is almost always played plectrum-style, the
> mandore is also played with the fingers.
.......................................................................
.............................
Playing the mandore fingerstyle seems to have been last in the order of
possibilities (mentioned in 17th century sources) after quill, some
sort of dedillo or quill stuck or tied on a finger.
How do we know how the gittern was played in the 16th century. Until
your email I'd never heard or read that it was played in the 16th
century (but this is not my day job!).
I'd better get back to playing some Gervaise tunes on the gittern.
.......................................................................
...............................
> Repertory: there are a lot of indications that the gittern was
used for
> vocal accompaniment (amongst the minstrel culture there are some
> indications that accompanying your singing on a gittern is
> a compulsory
> art you need to know - some romans mention this as well etc).
I've yet
> to find a reference that links that mandore to vocal
accompaniment.
> (As a contrastthe Italian baroque mandolin seems to have been
used
> for vocal accompaniment as well.)
> >> Another thing that might throw some confusion and to which I
have
> >> dedicated some of research time is the origin of the British
> "gittern",
> >> a form of cittern which seems to have been introduced (or
rather
> >> imported) to England around 1550.
> >I thought Ward argued that the small cittern=gittern was second
half
> of
> >17th C?
> No, this is wrong. There are sources from around 1550 that Ward
quotes
> that state that the "gittern" was newly brought into England at
that
> time.
> The medieval lute-like gittern was present in England for several
> centuries
> (at least until the 15th century there are court musicians
playing it)
> and
> seems not to have been the direct origin of the cittern-like
> gittern - as those early sources state the instrument is
imported.
> >> If you want to read up on that
> >> particular instrument, J. M. Ward's publication "Sprightly &
> Cheerful
> >> Musick: Notes on the Cittern, Gittern and Guitar in 16th and
17th
> >> century England" from the Lute Society Journal are a good
starting
> >> point. So tread very carefully if a written source or
manuscript
> >> mentioning "gittern" comes from Great Britain after 1550.
However, I
> >> found some interesting mainland sources pointing towards a
soprano
> >> cittern that show this instrument wasn't isolated to Great
Britain
> and
> >> actually has some links with the ancient gittern. (I won't
pursue
> this
> >> matter here as it's probably more suitable for the cittern
mailing
> >> list. :) )
> >The cittern list has fallen out of use. Do tell us how the
'soprano'
> >cittern' (? the little English one without the back that
Praetorius
> >mentions?) relates to the ancient gittern?
> I've actually written an article and given a lecture on it during
an
> IMS
> colloquium about this very subject. :) In this I try to prove
that the
> "klein Englisch Zitterlein" of Praetorius indeed is the
instrument
> called
> "gittern" in England in the 16th and 17th centuries. The size,
tuning
> intervals and descriptions given by Praetorius match. The fact
that
> he gives a tuning with pitches is very interesting as I believe
> Ward only had the relative tuning intervals. The tunings given by
> Praetorius are: f'-b'-d"-g" and f'-a'-d"-g". Both fit all the
known
> repertory currently linked to this instrument.
> >> The sources of Sebastian Virdung, Martin Agricola and
Nachtgall need
> >> hardly recalling when looking at the German-speaking
countries.
> >> Interistingly enough Nachtgall's latinisation of the
"quiterna" is
> >> "lutina". But as late as 1571, Roth's Woerterbuch mentions
> "Quintern:
> >> ein lauten mit neun saiten, welche den gross bumbart mit
seiner
> octaf
> >> nit hat" (gittern: a lute with 9 strings, missing the bass
string
> with
> >> its octave).
> >> For Italy, I have still to start further research, but most
> indications
> >> I already have collected show some popularity continued right
until
> the
> >> end of the 15th century. (I already mentioned Tinctoris - and
Monica
> >> kindly quoted his passage on the instrument. Some of the more
> important
> >> lute players from the 15th century are linked to the gittern
(noted
> in
> >> court records as gittern players or even having the nickname
of "dal
> >> chitarino" in the case of Pietrobono).) I have yet to start
looking
> for
> >> gittern sources in the 16th century but some of the
bibliographical
> >> links given by other people pointed out to me that I might not
be
> lone
> >> in my quest. ;)
> >> Monica already pointed out Bermudo's "guitar" on which I've
little
> to
> >> add. I think it unlikely the gittern still existed in Spain in
the
> 16th
> >> century - though I've made little effort so far to pursue such
> >> research. The bandurria however seems to come very close to
the
> >> original form of the gittern; it's as though history repeated
> itself.
> >> As a final thought: the "lute-like gittern" as well as the
> >> "cittern-like gittern" continued to exist well into the 18th
century
> >> and can cause lots of headaches when looking at more recent
sources
> as
> >> well as old, 16th century ones. (And I'm sure you all know
about the
> >> "English guitar" cittern from after the 1750s.)
> >I understand what you mean by the "lute-like gittern" (and,
again, how
> >is that different from the mandore?) but not what you mean by
> >"cittern-like gittern"? And finally, on the face of of it,
English
> >guitars seem very distant from the gittern tradition (which is
usually
> >thought of as pretty much extinct by the early 1750s when the
English
> >pops up).
> I hope I've made clear why I consider the "lute-like gittern"
different
> from
> the mandore above; but I can elaborate more if you like.
> The "gittern" as researched by Ward is an instrument which is
basically
> a
> diminished cittern. That's why I call it a "cittern-like gittern"
to
> make some
> distinction. I'm not one for investing a new name that might
introduce
> more confusion, but at least my description I used gives an
indication
> of
> what the instrument looks like and separates it from the
lute-like
> gittern.
> If you like to see a picture of a gittern, the title page of
Ward's
> books has
> a picture of someone playing a cittern in front and a wall on
which
> two
> instruments are hanging - one is a rebec, and the other one is
probably
> a gittern. That can be derived from the short string length
(almost
> the
> same as on the rebec next to it). Of course the picture might be
> lacking in
> accuracy but I believe it's accurate enough. Other than that you
can
> of course turn to Praetorius and if I dig up my article I can
probably
> quote
> you some further pictural references and descriptions from 16th /
17th
> century Great-Britain that point out that the "gittern" is a
small
> cittern.
> The interesting point here of course is that the "cittern-like
gittern"
> doesn't
> use the mandore or original lute-like gittern tuning but rather
follows
> the
> tuning of the lute/guitar/lute-like gittern. Can't be proven of
course
> but my suspicion is that the gittern and its tuning are derived
from
> the
> later stage of the lute-like gittern and the instrument somehow
evolved
> to
> a cittern-like instrument. Interesting though is that the
instrument
> was
> "imported" so this new invention should have been made somewhere
on the
> continent. Of course, as the cittern was considered a low social
> status, there
> are only few sources available and I suspect trying to find
sources
> will be
> hard.
> Anyway, for me the "gittern" in England in the 16-17th century (I
know
> of
> no 18th century sources) is a possible descendant of the
lute-like
> gittern;
> and the mandore probably isn't directly linked to the gittern.
> Hope this clarifies or perhaps starts an interesting discussion.
:)
> Kind regards,
> Pieter
> >Lots of new ideas to me, anyway, Pieter
> >Stuart
> > Kind regards
> > Pieter
> >
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> >
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Sent: 22 January 2013 10:05
> > To: [6]pie...@vantichelen.name
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
> StrAmbotto
> > Dear Pieter,
> > Thanks for this: however I think most of us know what a mandore
and
> > mandora is.
> > But the problem here is rather different: in short it's that
when a 4
> > course guitar is specified whether the instrument expected is
in the
> > figure-of-eight (guitar) shape or in the mandore (lute) shape.
> > Martyn
> > --- On Tue, 22/1/13, Pieter Van Tichelen
<[7]pie...@vantichelen.name>
> > wrote:
> > From: Pieter Van Tichelen <[8]pie...@vantichelen.name>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
> > StrAmbotto
> > To: "WALSH STUART" <[9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, "Andreas
Schlegel"
> > <[10]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Gary R. Boye"
> > <[12]boy...@appstate.edu>, "Lutelist"
<[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, 22 January, 2013, 7:01
> > Hi Stuart and Andreas,
> > It's very complex if only have a name to go on; I think we all
> > agree.
> > But if you've got tablature or a tuning chart it's a completely
> > different story.
> > The French baroque mandolin called mandore has a tuning which
has
> > fifths and fourths (most notably the c'-g'-c"-g" tuning, with
two
> > common deviations on the chanterelle: c'-g'-c"-f" and
c'-g'-c"-e",
> > though there are others and sometimes the whole tuning is a
fourth
> > or
> > fifth lower). This instrument was plucked with a plectrum or
> > fingerstyle (usually only one), some description even lists
binding
> > the
> > quill to a finger.
> > The mandora seems always to have had a tuning close to the
vieil ton
> > ((D-E)-F-G-c-f-a-d' most commonly found for "mandora"). As far
as I
> > know this instrument is played fingerstyle. Besides tablature
where
> > the
> > instrument is easily identified, I found some treatise
preserved in
> > Brno for the instrument where the full alfabeto chart was
explained
> > as
> > well (see folio 1r, Smetanova 14, Moravske zemske muzeum, Brno,
> > facsimile online see:
> >
[1][1][14]http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request
=
> > show_t
> > ei_digidoc&docId=set20070824_2_4). Interesting regarding the
tuning
> > is
> > fol. 3v which shows note names on a drawing of a mandora
> > fingerboard.
> > Iconographical sources are also easily distinguished; the
mandore is
> > really small instrument (about an arm's length as the full
> > instrument
> > length). The mandora is quite a big lute. However, it might
become
> > difficult to distinguish with other lutes - though the somewhat
> > different peg box can be a clue (usually sickle-shaped or
swan-like,
> > I've never come accross a mandora with a straight peg box or
one at
> > a
> > steep angle towards the neck).
> > Please note that some museums (Germanisches Nationalmuseum in
> > Nuremberg, Kunsthistorische Museum in Vienna) seem keen to use
the
> > term
> > "pandurina", only found in Praetorius as one of the names for
the
> > mandore. (Some of these items are badly labeled in any case, I
know
> > some Cremonese mandolins in the GNM in Nuremberg are labelled
> > "pandurina"...)
> > Kind regards,
> > Pieter
> >
____________________________________________________________________
> > ___
> > From: "WALSH STUART" <[2][15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> > Sent: 21 January 2013 20:26
> > To: "Andreas Schlegel" <[3][16]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
> > StrAmbotto
> > On 21/01/2013 18:20, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
> > > To avoid misunderstandings I suggest to use the terms for
> > instruments
> > in the language of the most important region in which they were
> > used.
> > So I say "Mandore" to the small 16/17 c. instrument because the
main
> > sources are in France. See
> > >
> >
[4][17]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore.htm
l
> > >
> >
[5][18]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Ins
t
> > rument
> > e/Mandore_Instrumente.html
> > >
> >
[6][19]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Mus
i
> > k/Mand
> > ore_Musik.html
> > > (not completely finished - and only in German for the moment)
> > > The "Mandora" is a German instrument.
> > >
> > > Translations are so dangerous! What is a theorbo? In England,
in
> > France, in Italy, in Germany? They are different instruments.
> > Nowadays
> > we need a clear definition for all instruments in all centuries
-
> > not
> > only the contemporary ones. And so the use of the adequate
language
> > can
> > give an important information - perhaps with the prefix
"French",
> > "Italian"...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Andreas
> > I agree with Andreas about using 'mandore' for the earlier,
little
> > instrument and 'mandora' for the later, larger one.
> > Of course, sources aren't consistent. The Tree Edtion of the
> > Leipziger
> > Mandora Handschrift ca.1730 clearly says: 'Tonstuecke fuer die
> > Mandore
> > um das jahre 1730' and 'Accord de la mandore' (Unless this is
late
> > music for the little French mandore - it's different from other
> > mandora
> > music I've seen). And Tyler quotes Valentin Strobel (mid 17th
C,
> > when
> > the little mandore was still popular): 'Concert fuer Mandora
und 3
> > Lauten.' And the Skene MS refers to it as 'mandor'! (And
Praetorius
> > has
> > several more names for it.)
> > Stuart
> > > Am 21.01.2013 um 19:01 schrieb Monica Hall:
> > >
> > >> Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources
> > actually
> > say that the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just
be
> > that
> > the tablature is 4 lines and the tuning matches.
> > >>
> > >> Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably
copied
> > in
> > 1570s - but how does he know that?
> > >>
> > >> I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of
Music
> > -
> > in fact
> > >> I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and
it
> > belonged to Robert Spencer.
> > >>
> > >> The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
> > >> is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
> > >> napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
> > >>
> > >> And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable -
deliberately
> > misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I
have
> > just been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged
him
> > for
> > that reason.
> > >>
> > >> Best
> > >>
> > >> Monica
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye"
> > <[7][20]boy...@appstate.edu>
> > >> To: "Monica Hall" <[8][21]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > >> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[9][22]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>;
"Lutelist"
> > >> <[10][23]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was
Calata de
> > StrAmbotto
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Dear Monica,
> > >>>
> > >>> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with
at
> > least
> > Italian
> > >>> tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
> > >>>
> > >>> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
> > >>> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
> > >>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> > >>>
> > >>> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
> > >>> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra
(ca.1625)
> > and
> > >>> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM;
see
> > TYLER p.
> > >>> 83]
> > >>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> > >>>
> > >>> Thomassini 1645
> > >>> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti,
> > volte,
> > >>> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese
> > nuovamente posti
> > >>> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a
quatro
> > corde
> > alla
> > >>> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de'
virtuosi,
> > et
> > nobili
> > >>> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome,
[Italy]:
> > Filippo
> > >>> Thomassini)
> > >>> 8-course lute in Italian tablature
> > >>> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
> > >>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> > >>>
> > >>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
> > >>> [RISM B/VII p. 107]
> > >>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> > >>>
> > >>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
> > >>> [RISM B/VII p. 108]
> > >>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> > >>> ***
> > >>>
> > >>> These last two depend on Boetticher for the
instrumentation--and
> > I
> > fully
> > >>> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted
the
> > number of
> > >>> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was
unable to
> > do
> > even
> > >>> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not
the
> > "real" 4c
> > >>> guitar?
> > >>>
> > >>> Gary
> > >>>
> > >>> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
> > >>>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain
> > although
> > the
> > >>>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner
> > suggested
> > by
> > >>>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is
unknown.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is
a
> > bit
> > odd
> > >>>> that a printed collection of lute music should include
just
> > four
> > pieces
> > >>>> for an instrument of a different type. There are
references to
> > the
> > >>>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a
contradiction)
> > that it
> > >>>> was a small lute.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving
Italian
> > repertoire
> > >>>> for the 4-course guitar.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Monica
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > >>>> <[11][24]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > >>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[12][25]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > >>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[13][26]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
> > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
> > StrAmbotto
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Dear Monica,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course
guitar
> > was
> > >>>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all
> > Hapsburg
> > >>>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I
don't
> > see it
> > >>>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as
> > particularly
> > >>>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight
shaped
> > >>>>> instrument
> > >>>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the
> > invisible
> > >>>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the
default.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> regards
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Martyn
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall
<[14][27]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From: Monica Hall <[15][28]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
> > >>>>> To: "Sean Smith" <[16][29]lutesm...@mac.com>
> > >>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[17][30]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for
the
> > 4-course
> > >>>>> guitar
> > >>>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the
appropriate
> > >>>>> reference -
> > >>>>> for
> > >>>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora.
> > >>>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una
> > nuova
> > >>>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo
tempo
> > Atti
> > del
> > >>>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57.
> > >>>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis
isn't
> > for
> > >>>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for
a
> > small
> > >>>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument.
> > >>>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
played in
> > Italy.
> > >>>>> Monica
> > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1][18][31]lutesm...@mac.com>
> > >>>>> To: "lute" <[2][19][32]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM
> > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but
had
> > >>>>> forgotten
> > >>>>> them
> > >>>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was
being
> > played
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>> even
> > >>>>> > written for.
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > Sean
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > The link is at the very bttom.
> > >>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness"
> > >>>>> <[3][20][33]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
> > >>>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][21][34]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
"Sean
> > Smith"
> > >>>>> > <[5][22][35]lutesm...@mac.com>
> > >>>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6][23][36]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM
> > >>>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian
> > guitar
> > >>>>> pieces.
> > >>>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as
> > saying
> > >>>>> there
> > >>>>> are
> > >>>>> >> no pieces.<g>:
> > >>>>> >> See [1][7][24][37]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
Sigs,
> > Gg24v-Hh1v
> > (last
> > >>>>> two
> > >>>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>>
> > >>>>> >> References
> > >>>>> >> 1. [8][25][38]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > >>>>> >> 2. mailto:[9][26][39]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > >>>>> >> 3. mailto:[10][27][40]lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> >> 4. mailto:[11][28][41]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>> >> 5. mailto:[12][29][42]lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> >> 6. mailto:[13][30][43]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>> >> 7. mailto:[14][31][44]lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> >> 8. mailto:[15][32][45]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>> >> 9.
> >
[16][33][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>>>> >>
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >>>>> >
> >
[17][34][47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> References
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1.
> >
[35][48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> 2.
> >
[36][49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
e
> > du
> > >>>>> 3.
> > >>>>>
> >
[37][50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizo
n
> > .net
> > >>>>> 4.
> >
[38][51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.
> > uk
> > >>>>> 5.
> >
[39][52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> 6.
> >
[40][53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
e
> > du
> > >>>>> 7. [41][54]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > >>>>> 8. [42][55]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > >>>>> 9.
> >
[43][56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.
> > uk
> > >>>>> 10.
> >
[44][57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> 11.
> >
[45][58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
e
> > du
> > >>>>> 12.
> >
[46][59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> 13.
> >
[47][60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
e
> > du
> > >>>>> 14.
> >
[48][61]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > >>>>> 15.
> >
[49][62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
e
> > du
> > >>>>> 16.
[50][63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>>>> 17.
[51][64]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
> > >>> Professor and Music Librarian
> > >>> Appalachian State University
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > References
> > 1.
> >
>
[52][65]http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request=s
how_
> > tei_digidoc&docId=set20070824_2_4
> > --
> > References
> > 1.
>
[66]http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request=show_
t
> > 2.
[67]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> > 3.
>
[68]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
> > 4.
[69]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore.html
> > 5.
> >
>
[70]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Instru
ment
> > 6.
> >
>
[71]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Musik/
Mand
> > 7.
[72]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boy...@appstate.edu
> > 8.
[73]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 9.
> >
>
[74]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> > 10.
>
[75]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 11.
> >
>
[76]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> > 12.
>
[77]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 13.
>
[78]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 14.
>
[79]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 15.
>
[80]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 16.
[81]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 17.
>
[82]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 18.
[83]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 19.
>
[84]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 20.
> >
[85]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne
t
> > 21.
>
[86]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 22.
[87]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 23.
>
[88]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 24. [89]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > 25. [90]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > 26.
>
[91]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 27.
[92]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 28.
>
[93]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 29.
[94]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 30.
>
[95]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 31.
[96]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 32.
>
[97]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 33. [98]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 34. [99]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 35.
[100]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 36.
>
[101]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 37.
> >
[102]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon.n
et
> > 38.
>
[103]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 39.
[104]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 40.
>
[105]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 41. [106]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > 42. [107]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
> > 43.
>
[108]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > 44.
[109]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 45.
>
[110]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 46.
[111]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 47.
>
[112]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 48.
[113]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
> > 49.
>
[114]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 50. [115]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 51. [116]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 52.
> >
>
[117]http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request=show
_tei_
> > digidoc&docId=set20070824_2_4 --
> >
> > --
>
>
--
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74. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
75. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
76. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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84. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
85. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
86. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
87. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
88. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
89. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
90. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
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92. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
93. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
94. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
95. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
96. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
97. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
98. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
99. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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101. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
102. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
103. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
104. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
105. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
106. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
107. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
108. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
109. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
110. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
111. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
112. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
113. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
114. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
115. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
116. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
117. http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request=show_tei_
