On Jan 22, 2013, at 1:34 AM, Monica Hall wrote: I'm couldn't count the courses, pegs or pegholes as the image isn't that clear. Also I don't think you can assume that these things are correct to every detail. Dear Monica, I hope you're looking at the second website I gave for this image. [1]http://www.wga.hu/art/m/mola_ap/musical2.jpg The courses aren't accurate because (probably from limitations of the medium) the artist only included a cursory number of strings on both instruments. Looking at the pegbox, I see three pegs on the left with one more above which would give 6. This would mean either a 6-single course vihuela or one of fewer courses with a combination of single and double courses if we take this literally. I'll agree we can't be sure as you say. But apart from that it looks too big overall to be a 4-course guitar Looking at the sizes of the double flute and recorder it's rather small for our usual tenor vihuela. (certainly smaller than my 54cm-stringlength french ren guitar). In many of the images on the Cipher's image site the combination of a plucked instrument with a bowed show a smaller 'fiddle' than, say, a tenor instrument. I have no reason expectation to suspect this duo would be any different. and why should anyone want to reduce the number of courses. Maybe to tune in 5ths and get the same range and tuning of the bowed instrument? Maybe fewer strings worked for the player better? Maybe the two players or one swapped instruments? Maybe to use less strings or economy? Who knows? Maybe at this early development of (whatever) instrument this is, someone found that a small plucked instrument could _also_ work with less courses. Most of the plucked instruments images and literature we see in the late 15th century are related to either a pious or a noble environment and where the carefully thought out music would reign. If there was an instrument that was played for strumming, rhythm-work and, I daresay, dancing, we would hardly see money being invested in its portraiture. Dalza proves that the genre existed and it had an extensive literature from a variety of sources. How much of this iceberg tip we're seeing is, of course, speculative. In the main body of Dalza's literature we see two important parts and not much more: a strong melody and we see chords underneath. The chords aren't well regulated by rules of counterpoint or even mode as his constant blue notes suggest. (Dalza does show he can abide by the rules quite competently when necessary in his frottole intabulations though he pales beside Spinacino) Looking at the Ferrarese he doesn't mind using whatever chord 'works' but also doesn't mind putting the opening melody at the tonic or the 5th. Or, even that one need _ever_ change chords! It's loosy-goosy and obviously not high on his list of what's important. Again, this literature was real and apparently extensive. So who was playing it that Petrucci felt it would make money by publishing it as the last of his solo lutebooks? Was it an established _lute_ literature or was it perhaps cobbled together from a variety of playing groups of different instrument groups and the tunes they played or some combination? How would he most efficiently reconcile a lot of different kinds of settings into a book of dance music? His decision to put lute chords under a melody is sufficiently shrewd to both play solo _and_ to disseminate a group structure. Looking at this vihuela-like instrument it looks considerably easier to make than a lute (peghead and body points notwithstanding) and gives more internal volume than a lute would of similar stringlength. If I was the plucker in a small-town group with a cheaper patron --if any-- I imagine I'd find something like this in my hands a lot quicker than a lute and, further, I'd find it a lot easier to keep a rhythm on it and buy strings. It's certainly easier to make without a mold or staves. (There may have even been a stigma attached to non-aristocratic bands having an oud-looking instrument in the group although more-so in Spain but countryfolk have their mindset regardless) Even today there's a cottage industry of making ukes from cigarboxes and I'd hardly expect one to figure in the illustration of the birth of Christ or the inauguration of a president. Ditto, the birth of the banjo with its gourd body and its earliest literature. Or even the penny whistle, ocarina, tambourine, etc. In short, the graphic representations we have of the instrumentation are skewed to the aristocratic taste and setting. Notice here, too, in the illustration of the double flute (and possible ocarina): it lends further doubt that this image --and, probably, room-- was devoted to highbrow song-making. This one image could easily describe the instrumentarium of one working dance band: one fiddler, one wind player and a strummer/plucker --maybe more, maybe fewer. (Not entirely unrelatedly, I had a friend who played Lord Oxenford's March w/ me on two recorders (sop/alto) at once. It quickly became Ol' Oxy's Thump) The Borgias were Spanish. Excellent. Now we have a mechanism for the import of both the music ("spagnolas") and the instrument. Of course we can't know if they were the first to import this waisted instrument or legitimise it in aristocratic circles. We assume the lute didn't drop from favor during the relative absence of publications for it between Dalza and the 1540's and I'm assuming the instrument that we see here didn't as well. It didn't figure highly enough in publications circles to make much impact even in the '40s but perhaps it retained enough of its Spanish connotation that Barbaris published what little he did in Milan's tab style. When the French Ren guitar eventually appeared on the scene it was mostly branles and other dance music (again with spanish hints such as the many Conte Claires and Roman-escas) with the most idiomatic being the branles and the least fitting being the intabulations despite the best arts of Morlaye and that Italian fellow, Alberto. All I'm trying to argue for is that it is a popular instrument that flew under the historical record's radar and as such, cannot be argued away by the lack of greater record. This is, I believe, a reference to it . The references are where we would expect them from those rare occasions when it rose to aristocratic notice but this rare image shows it to be in its more popular environment. best wishes, Sean If you go back to page one of the site and scroll down you will find a similar image of a fresco in the Borgia Apartments, the Vatican, "Quadrivium, Music", by Bernadino Pinturicchio, dated 1493. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Sean Smith" <[3]lutesm...@mac.com>; "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:07 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica, You could be right - but count the number of pegs (not pegholes). Perhaps a viola being used as a 4 course guitar............ Martyn --- On Tue, 22/1/13, Monica Hall <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto To: "Sean Smith" <[8]lutesm...@mac.com> Cc: "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 22 January, 2013, 8:56 A nice picture - but it is a vihuela or viola not a 4-course guitar. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto > > There does seem to be some iconography from Italian sources. I realize > this page > [3]http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html > is light on sources but I believe the matching guitar-shaped instrument > and violin intarsia is from the Gonzaga estate c.1507. > > The intarsia is about 2/3 down the page just under the Girolamo Dai Libri > detail. It is difficult to count the pegs but the strings do appear > doubled. > > There are other small vihuela-like plucked instruments on the page of > Italian origin, too. > > Sean > > > On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say > that the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the > tablature is 4 lines and the tuning matches. > > Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in > 1570s - but how does he know that? > > I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in > fact > I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged > to Robert Spencer. > > The 4-course music in Concerto Vago > is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla > napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora. > > And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately > misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have > just been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for > that reason. > > Best > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye" <[4]boy...@appstate.edu> > To: "Monica Hall" <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist" > <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de > StrAmbotto > > >> Dear Monica, >> >> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least >> Italian >> tablature, although possibly not all Italian: >> >> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)] >> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650] >> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and >> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. >> 83] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> Thomassini 1645 >> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte, >> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente >> posti >> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla >> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et >> nobili >> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo >> Thomassini) >> 8-course lute in Italian tablature >> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700] >> [RISM B/VII p. 107] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700] >> [RISM B/VII p. 108] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> *** >> >> These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully >> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of >> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even >> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the "real" 4c >> guitar? >> >> Gary >> >> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the >>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by >>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown. >>> >>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd >>> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces >>> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the >>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it >>> was a small lute. >>> >>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire >>> for the 4-course guitar. >>> >>> Monica >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" >>> <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>> To: "Monica Hall" <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Monica, >>>> >>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was >>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right. >>>> >>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg >>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it >>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly >>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped >>>> instrument >>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible >>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> Martyn >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Monica Hall <[12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> To: "Sean Smith" <[13]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38 >>>> >>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course >>>> guitar >>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate >>>> reference - >>>> for >>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora. >>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova >>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del >>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57. >>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for >>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small >>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument. >>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy. >>>> Monica >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1][15]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> To: "lute" <[2][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> > >>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had >>>> forgotten >>>> them >>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played >>>> and >>>> even >>>> > written for. >>>> > >>>> > Sean >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: >>>> > >>>> > The link is at the very bttom. >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness" >>>> <[3][17]arthurjn...@verizon.net> >>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith" >>>> > <[5][19]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6][20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM >>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar >>>> pieces. >>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying >>>> there >>>> are >>>> >> no pieces.<g>: >>>> >> See [1][7][21]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last >>>> two >>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>> >>>> >> References >>>> >> 1. [8][22]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> >> 2. mailto:[9][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>>> >> 3. mailto:[10][24]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 4. mailto:[11][25]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 5. mailto:[12][26]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 6. mailto:[13][27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 7. mailto:[14][28]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 8. mailto:[15][29]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 9. [16][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> > [17][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. [32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 2. [33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. edu >>>> 3. >>>> [34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizo n.ne t >>>> 4. [35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co .uk >>>> 5. [36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 6. [37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. edu >>>> 7. [38]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> 8. [39]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> 9. [40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co .uk >>>> 10. [41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 11. [42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. edu >>>> 12. [43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 13. [44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. edu >>>> 14. [45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 15. [46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. edu >>>> 16. [47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 17. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Dr. Gary R. Boye >> Professor and Music Librarian >> Appalachian State University > > > > -- References 1. [10]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 2. [11]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 3. [12]http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html 4. [13]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boy...@appstate.edu 5. [14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 6. [15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo .co.uk 7. [16]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 8. [17]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo .co.uk 9. [18]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 10. [19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 11. [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 12. [21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 13. [22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 14. [23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 15. [24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 16. [25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 17. [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon .net 18. [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 19. [28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 20. [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 21. [30]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 22. [31]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 23. [32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 24. [33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 25. [34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 26. [35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 27. [36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 28. [37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 29. [38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 30. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 31. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. [41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 33. [42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 34. [43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon .net 35. [44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 36. [45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 37. [46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 38. [47]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 39. [48]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 40. [49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. uk 41. [50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 42. [51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 43. [52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 44. [53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 45. [54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com 46. [55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e du 47. [56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 48. 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