Hello Martyn, Unfortunately I have not found the exact date yet. I guess digging into a full list of paintings by Tibaldi will clear this up but I haven't got access to that on short notice. I will continue the search for iconographical or other sources for both shapes of chitarrino (figure-8 or lute) when I've got some spare time but it's not exactly going very fast or easy so far... And linking such pictures to a tablature and/or a name of an instrument will probably be very hard to find. You have the right to be sceptical about not seeing this instrument as a possible mandore, but there are some facts to take into account which make it improbably in my opinion: - the mandore started off as a single-course instrument; double courses are not to be found until much later (definitely not in the 16th century) - and if single course, even if not all the pegs are used, this instrument would be pretty early to have five strings. - the mandore usually has a sickle-shaped peg box. (I know there are counter-examples to be made where a pegbox like in this picture is used but that is the exception, not the rule.) - there are no Italian sources for the mandore this soon - even in France it seems the instrument only reached the north of France and Paris around the 1570s. The earliest Italian sources that might point to the mandore are from around the 1630s. The "mandore boom" is pretty local to France during the 16th century, Germany and Italy follow several decades later. (I can think of only one exception: the "mandole" mentioned as used in one of the intermedii of the Medici wedding in 1589; but that is probably because the bride, Christina of Lorraine, came from France.) Kind regards, Pieter _______________________________________________________________________
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: 28 January 2013 11:27 To: pie...@vantichelen.name Subject: re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy Thank you Peter, Have you a precise date for this painting? You suggest later half of the 16th century (and I note Tibaldi died in 1596) so it might not actually predate the the mandore boom years. As you also remark: 'Of course, nothing proves that the instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place.' ; and I wholly agree with you - nevertheless all these things add grist to the mill and I look forward to any other further discoveries. What would be ideal would be an Italian representation similar to the cover of the Morlaye book ie unequivocally tying an instrument (of whatever shape!) to a tablature, but........ regards, Martyn --- On Mon, 28/1/13, Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name> wrote: From: Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name> Subject: re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 28 January, 2013, 10:11 Hi Martyn & Monica, Finally I have managed to dig up an iconographical source relevant to the discussion, 16th century Italy. Of course, nothing proves that the instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place. The picture predates the introduction of the French mandore and consequent development towards the Italian baroque mandolin and is made by an Italian painter mainly active in Rome, Bologna and Milan during the later half of the 16th century. The painting is called "Saint Cecilia" and the painter is Pellegrino Tibaldi. You can have a look at the picture in black & white in Gallica (use the buttons to enlarge details): [1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r Of course the instrument of interest is the one laying on the table. It's a pity the instrument is in perspective pointing towards us, which makes it more difficult to judge the size. But at the very least we can conclude it's smaller than the typical lute (almost the same than the violin on the same table though difficult to judge exactly); and has only a limited amount of courses. Though the instrument has 7 pegs, I know of certain cases where pegs are added decoratively (both on pictures and preserved instruments) so I won't base any final judgements... but it seems to be a likely candidate for a four-course lute-like gittern. (I'm wondering whether this might not be the type referred to as the "small lute lacking the bass and soprano courses".) I will continue to try and find any pictures of figure-8 shaped or lute-like soprano plucked instruments but it's been hard to find even this one... Kind regards, Pieter _______________________________________________________________________ From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: 27 January 2013 18:14 To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy Dear Monica, Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8 shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I wrote a bit more carefully...... You also ask ' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than Spanish if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't know.' Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5 course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the differentiation means anything to do with the shape! And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in origin? Again, puzzled...... But, as ever, regards to you Martyn PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do the same when replying? M --- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13 The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that Barberiis' instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549 not a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not sink without trace in 1550. Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?) > might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to > differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument smacks to me of chop logic. Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than Spanish if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something specifically Italian about it. How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't know. The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra - to wit 1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses) 2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings. In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused. And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to any new revelations. As ever Monica -- References 1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html