Hello Martyn,
Unfortunately I have not found the exact date yet. I guess digging into
a full list of paintings by Tibaldi will clear this up but I haven't
got access to that on short notice.
I will continue the search for iconographical or other sources for both
shapes of chitarrino (figure-8 or lute) when I've got some spare time
but it's not exactly going very fast or easy so far... And linking such
pictures to a tablature and/or a name of an instrument will probably be
very hard to find.
You have the right to be sceptical about not seeing this instrument as
a possible mandore, but there are some facts to take into account which
make it improbably in my opinion:
- the mandore started off as a single-course instrument; double courses
are not to be found until much later (definitely not in the 16th
century) - and if single course, even if not all the pegs are used,
this instrument would be pretty early to have five strings.
- the mandore usually has a sickle-shaped peg box. (I know there are
counter-examples to be made where a pegbox like in this picture is used
but that is the exception, not the rule.)
- there are no Italian sources for the mandore this soon - even in
France it seems the instrument only reached the north of France and
Paris around the 1570s. The earliest Italian sources that might point
to the mandore are from around the 1630s. The "mandore boom" is pretty
local to France during the 16th century, Germany and Italy follow
several decades later.
(I can think of only one exception: the "mandole" mentioned as used in
one of the intermedii of the Medici wedding in 1589; but that is
probably because the bride, Christina of Lorraine, came from France.)
Kind regards,
Pieter
_______________________________________________________________________
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: 28 January 2013 11:27
To: pie...@vantichelen.name
Subject: re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Thank you Peter,
Have you a precise date for this painting? You suggest later half of
the 16th century (and I note Tibaldi died in 1596) so it might not
actually predate the the mandore boom years.
As you also remark: 'Of course, nothing proves that the instrument
depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some lute-like
instrument of soprano range at that time and place.' ; and I wholly
agree with you - nevertheless all these things add grist to the mill
and I look forward to any other further discoveries.
What would be ideal would be an Italian representation similar to the
cover of the Morlaye book ie unequivocally tying an instrument (of
whatever shape!) to a tablature, but........
regards,
Martyn
--- On Mon, 28/1/13, Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name>
wrote:
From: Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name>
Subject: re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 28 January, 2013, 10:11
Hi Martyn & Monica,
Finally I have managed to dig up an iconographical source relevant to
the discussion, 16th century Italy. Of course, nothing proves that the
instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some
lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place. The
picture predates the introduction of the French mandore and consequent
development towards the Italian baroque mandolin and is made by an
Italian painter mainly active in Rome, Bologna and Milan during the
later half of the 16th century.
The painting is called "Saint Cecilia" and the painter is Pellegrino
Tibaldi. You can have a look at the picture in black & white in Gallica
(use the buttons to enlarge details):
[1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r
Of course the instrument of interest is the one laying on the table.
It's a pity the instrument is in perspective pointing towards us, which
makes it more difficult to judge the size. But at the very least we can
conclude it's smaller than the typical lute (almost the same than the
violin on the same table though difficult to judge exactly); and has
only a limited amount of courses. Though the instrument has 7 pegs, I
know of certain cases where pegs are added decoratively (both on
pictures and preserved instruments) so I won't base any final
judgements... but it seems to be a likely candidate for a four-course
lute-like gittern. (I'm wondering whether this might not be the type
referred to as the "small lute lacking the bass and soprano courses".)
I will continue to try and find any pictures of figure-8 shaped or
lute-like soprano plucked instruments but it's been hard to find even
this one...
Kind regards,
Pieter
_______________________________________________________________________
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: 27 January 2013 18:14
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Dear Monica,
Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8
shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do
know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci
or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I
wrote a bit more carefully......
You also ask
' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than
Spanish
if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for
referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something
specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that
it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't
know.'
Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by
different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the
late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were
around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for
Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and
meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four
course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5
course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the
differentiation means anything to do with the shape!
And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in
origin?
Again, puzzled......
But, as ever, regards to you
Martyn
PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about
freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from
your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do
the same when replying?
M
--- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13
The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that
Barberiis'
instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549
not
a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not
sink
without trace in 1550.
Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?)
> might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to
> differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument
smacks to me of chop logic.
Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than
Spanish
if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for
referring
to it as Italian was presumably because there was something
specifically
Italian about it.
How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen
the 4-
and
5-course guitars I don't know.
The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra
-
to wit
1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano
A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses)
2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde
A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings.
In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone
cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused.
And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are
losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to
any
new revelations.
As ever
Monica
--
References
1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r
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