I certainly can't speak for Martyn, but don't detect any suppositions of "self-evident" terminology in what he's written to this thread. I can speak for me, and what Martyn has written does speak to my own skepticism. I perceive a great difference between "In spite of Meucci's article, I'm not certain what 'chitarra' may refer to in every instance," and "Because I'm not certain of the universal meaning of 'chitarra' in this context, it must sometimes refer to a waisted instrument." The impression I've always taken from this thread is the former concept, and it's one I personally like. I don't mind occasional admission to not knowing or not having come to a conclusion. As a matter of fact, I ordinarily prefer that state of knowledge. It's much more plastic if/when contrary evidence ever does arise.
Carry on. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:30 AM To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy Contrary to what you suggest - we do know that "chitarriglia" is an Italian term for a small guitar. I understand that it is an Italianized version of the Spanish diminutive - guitarrilla. It is used to refer to the instrument in 5-course guitar books fairly indiscrimately - i.e. without necessarily implying a smaller instrument than usual. Pesori and Granata come to mind. I am objecting to the translation of "chitarra" as "guitar" in the passage which you quote. I wouldn't translate the title as it appears on the title page at all. If I was translating the introduction on p.5 I would leave the terms "chitarriglia" and "chitarra" untranslated with a note explaining possible interpretations of them. It is axiomatic that when translating terms like these that you try to find definitions of them in dictionaries of the period. I have to say that when I saw Valdambrini's book for the first time I did wonder whether the description of the instrument on the title page as "chitarra a cinque ordini" indicated that it was a different instrument especially in view of the fact that he clearly says that that it has a re-entrant tuning. However the illustration on the title page of Book 1 shows a cherub playing a 5-course guitar with the courses and peg holes clearly visible. The music and the notation is in line with other collections of music for 5-course guitar. It seems fairly certain that it is for 5-course guitar. Asioli's books were printed in the 1670s by which time it seems that it was no longer necessary to include the qualifier "spagnola". What puzzles me is the way you seem to assume that it is self evident that the term "chitarra" refers to a 4-course guitar when actually you have never put forward any positive evidence to support your view. As Stuart pointed out we tend to look at things from an English point of view and needless to say everyone from Alexander Bellow to James Tyler and your good self, taking in Frederick Grunfeld and Harvey Turnbull and a few others en route have simply assumed that anything called a chitarra or guitarra must be a figure of 8 shaped guitar. I am surprised that you appear to be dismissing Meucci's article as "nothing more than ad hoc speculation" just because it seems to undermine you preconceived ideas about what these terms might mean. Part of the problem may be that I have tended to refer to the chitarra as a "small lute or mandore". It would obviously be better simply to refer to it as a small lute leaving the mandore out of it. It's actual make up may have varied over the years. As ever Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:28 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Dear Monica, > > Some of what you say about Calvi's collection makes sense - that the > intabulated pieces are different from anything else in the 5-course > repertoire. > > But I'm puzzled why you object to translating 'chitarra' as 'guitar' in > the context of Calvi's collection which contains mostly Alfabeto pieces > and not just those later intabulated Sounate. Or are you suggesting > that if the qualifier 'alla Spagnola' is not attached to 'chitarra' > then it's always a lute shaped instrument! This seems an extreme > position to adopt. By this test the 'chitarra' specified by, for > example Calvi, Valdambrini and Asioli (which don't have the qualifier > 'alla Spagnola' or similar on their title pages) are all for the lute > shaped instrument. Note that I left ' chitarriglia' alone since we > don't know what it was/is..... > > From what you say (below) about Calvi's instruments it seems you > believe both were lute shaped instruments but one 'standard' sized > (whatever that) and one smaller. Is this really your position? > > regards > > Martyn > > PS Why would anyone suggest translating 'vihuela' as 'guitar' (or even > 'guitarra', etc) - the etymology of the two are are quite distinct. > But I recall at least one early English source (an inventory I think) > calls them vialls (viols)...... > > M > > > --- On Tue, 29/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > To: "William Samson" <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Tuesday, 29 January, 2013, 13:13 > > Well as regards the instrument illustrated - I'll set the cat among the > pigeons and suggest that it might be tuned in the same > way as the baroque guitar. It is very interesting that it is a > lute-shaped > 5-course instrument. > As Martyn has pointed out, the second section of Calvi's "Intavolatura > di > chitarra e chitarriglia" has a > number of pieces in Italian tablature. > Calvi says of these 'Le seguente Suonate possono servire anche per la > Chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra" . > Martyn has translated this as 'The following Suonate can also serve > for the > Chitarriglia, but they are really for the Guitar" .But he is already > reading his prejudices into what Calvi says by assuming that "chitarra" > in > Italian means the same thing as "guitar" in English and that it is > appropriate to translate it in this way. It is untranslatable. > This is the problem with translating things as anyone who has tried > will > know. There are many circumstances when it is not possible to find an > exact > equivalent for specialist terms. No-one would translate "vihuela" as > "guitar". > The question is "Why should Calvi differentiate between a small and a > standard sized instrument when clearly both were capable of playing > exactly > the same music and often did"? > The most important point is that the music in tablature is very > different > from anything else in the 5-course repertoire. Not only does it not > use > alfabeto; there are no five part chords at all and no suggestion that > the > four part ones should be strummed. The repertoire and the style of the > music is also a bit old fashioned. > It seems unlikely that the instrument that Calvi refers to is a > 5-course > guitar; more likely to be a 5-course lute. > Foscarini of course also included arrangements of lute music in his > great > work - and these are similarly different from what was considered to be > the > appropriate style for the 5-course instrument. > As ever > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Samson" <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Davide Rebuffa" <[2]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Martyn > Hodgson" > <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: <[4]pie...@vantichelen.name>; "Monica Hall" > <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; > "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:51 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Hi, > > > > [1][7]http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7 - on my Skydrive again. > > > > Not a 4c instrument this time, but one with 5 courses. Looks like > a > > small lute, nothing definite can be said about the pegbox shape. > No > > indication of octave stringing. The painting looks like first half > of > > the 17th century, but I've no idea who the painter is. The > presence of > > an archlute suggests Italian, but who knows? - Some musicians > travelled > > widely and were no doubt intrigued by the instruments they > encountered > > in other countries. They might even have brought examples home > with > > them. > > > > The question is - How was it tuned and used? > > > > Answers on a postcard please, . . . > > > > Bill > > > > PS There's a surviving 5c instrument, not unlike this one, shown > on > > page 91 of "The Lute in Europe 2". > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > 2. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > 3. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pie...@vantichelen.name > 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 7. http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
