Excellent plan. Eugene
-----Original Message----- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:16 PM To: Braig, Eugene Cc: Lutelist Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy Oh dear - sorry if I have given the wrong impression about what Martyn was saying. We sometimes get at cross-purposes and get cross with one another but I think we are on friendly enough terms not to take offense. Apologies if you or he see it differently. And now as Rob suggests - let's just listen to the music and enjoy. Monica Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu> To: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:17 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy >I certainly can't speak for Martyn, but don't detect any suppositions of >"self-evident" terminology in what he's written to this thread. I can >speak for me, and what Martyn has written does speak to my own skepticism. >I perceive a great difference between "In spite of Meucci's article, I'm >not certain what 'chitarra' may refer to in every instance," and "Because >I'm not certain of the universal meaning of 'chitarra' in this context, it >must sometimes refer to a waisted instrument." The impression I've always >taken from this thread is the former concept, and it's one I personally >like. I don't mind occasional admission to not knowing or not having come >to a conclusion. As a matter of fact, I ordinarily prefer that state of >knowledge. It's much more plastic if/when contrary evidence ever does >arise. > > Carry on. > > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:30 AM > To: Martyn Hodgson > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Contrary to what you suggest - we do know that "chitarriglia" is an > Italian term for a small guitar. I understand that it is an Italianized > version of the Spanish diminutive - guitarrilla. It is used to refer to > the instrument in 5-course guitar books fairly indiscrimately - i.e. > without necessarily implying a smaller instrument than usual. Pesori and > Granata come to mind. > > I am objecting to the translation of "chitarra" as "guitar" in the passage > which you quote. I wouldn't translate the title as it appears on the > title > page at all. If I was translating the introduction on p.5 I would leave > the terms "chitarriglia" and "chitarra" untranslated with a note > explaining possible interpretations of them. It is axiomatic that when > translating terms like these that you try to find definitions of them in > dictionaries of the period. > > I have to say that when I saw Valdambrini's book for the first time I did > wonder whether the description of the instrument on the title page as > "chitarra a cinque ordini" indicated that it was a different instrument > especially in view of the fact that he clearly says that that it has a > re-entrant tuning. However the illustration on the title page of Book 1 > shows a cherub playing a 5-course guitar with the courses and peg holes > clearly visible. The music and the notation is in line with other > collections of music for 5-course guitar. It seems fairly certain that it > is for 5-course guitar. > Asioli's books were printed in the 1670s by which time it seems that it > was no longer necessary to include the qualifier "spagnola". > > What puzzles me is the way you seem to assume that it is self evident that > the term "chitarra" refers to a 4-course guitar when actually you have > never put forward any positive evidence to support your view. > As Stuart pointed out we tend to look at things from an English point of > view and needless to say everyone from Alexander Bellow to James Tyler and > your good self, taking in Frederick Grunfeld and Harvey Turnbull and a few > others en route have simply assumed that anything called a chitarra or > guitarra must be a figure of 8 shaped guitar. > > I am surprised that you appear to be dismissing Meucci's article as > "nothing more than ad hoc speculation" just because it seems to undermine > you preconceived ideas about what these terms might mean. > > Part of the problem may be that I have tended to refer to the chitarra as > a "small lute or mandore". It would obviously be better simply to refer > to it as a small lute leaving the mandore out of it. It's actual make up > may have varied over the years. > > As ever > Monica > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:28 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > >> >> Dear Monica, >> >> Some of what you say about Calvi's collection makes sense - that the >> intabulated pieces are different from anything else in the 5-course >> repertoire. >> >> But I'm puzzled why you object to translating 'chitarra' as 'guitar' in >> the context of Calvi's collection which contains mostly Alfabeto pieces >> and not just those later intabulated Sounate. Or are you suggesting >> that if the qualifier 'alla Spagnola' is not attached to 'chitarra' >> then it's always a lute shaped instrument! This seems an extreme >> position to adopt. By this test the 'chitarra' specified by, for >> example Calvi, Valdambrini and Asioli (which don't have the qualifier >> 'alla Spagnola' or similar on their title pages) are all for the lute >> shaped instrument. Note that I left ' chitarriglia' alone since we >> don't know what it was/is..... >> >> From what you say (below) about Calvi's instruments it seems you >> believe both were lute shaped instruments but one 'standard' sized >> (whatever that) and one smaller. Is this really your position? >> >> regards >> >> Martyn >> >> PS Why would anyone suggest translating 'vihuela' as 'guitar' (or even >> 'guitarra', etc) - the etymology of the two are are quite distinct. >> But I recall at least one early English source (an inventory I think) >> calls them vialls (viols)...... >> >> M >> >> >> --- On Tue, 29/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >> >> From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy >> To: "William Samson" <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Date: Tuesday, 29 January, 2013, 13:13 >> >> Well as regards the instrument illustrated - I'll set the cat among the >> pigeons and suggest that it might be tuned in the same >> way as the baroque guitar. It is very interesting that it is a >> lute-shaped >> 5-course instrument. >> As Martyn has pointed out, the second section of Calvi's "Intavolatura >> di >> chitarra e chitarriglia" has a >> number of pieces in Italian tablature. >> Calvi says of these 'Le seguente Suonate possono servire anche per la >> Chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra" . >> Martyn has translated this as 'The following Suonate can also serve >> for the >> Chitarriglia, but they are really for the Guitar" .But he is already >> reading his prejudices into what Calvi says by assuming that "chitarra" >> in >> Italian means the same thing as "guitar" in English and that it is >> appropriate to translate it in this way. It is untranslatable. >> This is the problem with translating things as anyone who has tried >> will >> know. There are many circumstances when it is not possible to find an >> exact >> equivalent for specialist terms. No-one would translate "vihuela" as >> "guitar". >> The question is "Why should Calvi differentiate between a small and a >> standard sized instrument when clearly both were capable of playing >> exactly >> the same music and often did"? >> The most important point is that the music in tablature is very >> different >> from anything else in the 5-course repertoire. Not only does it not >> use >> alfabeto; there are no five part chords at all and no suggestion that >> the >> four part ones should be strummed. The repertoire and the style of the >> music is also a bit old fashioned. >> It seems unlikely that the instrument that Calvi refers to is a >> 5-course >> guitar; more likely to be a 5-course lute. >> Foscarini of course also included arrangements of lute music in his >> great >> work - and these are similarly different from what was considered to be >> the >> appropriate style for the 5-course instrument. >> As ever >> Monica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "William Samson" <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> >> To: "Davide Rebuffa" <[2]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Martyn >> Hodgson" >> <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: <[4]pie...@vantichelen.name>; "Monica Hall" >> <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; >> "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:51 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy >> > Hi, >> > >> > [1][7]http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7 - on my Skydrive again. >> > >> > Not a 4c instrument this time, but one with 5 courses. Looks like >> a >> > small lute, nothing definite can be said about the pegbox shape. >> No >> > indication of octave stringing. The painting looks like first half >> of >> > the 17th century, but I've no idea who the painter is. The >> presence of >> > an archlute suggests Italian, but who knows? - Some musicians >> travelled >> > widely and were no doubt intrigued by the instruments they >> encountered >> > in other countries. They might even have brought examples home >> with >> > them. >> > >> > The question is - How was it tuned and used? >> > >> > Answers on a postcard please, . . . >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > PS There's a surviving 5c instrument, not unlike this one, shown >> on >> > page 91 of "The Lute in Europe 2". >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk >> 2. >> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it >> 3. >> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pie...@vantichelen.name >> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >> 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 7. http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7 >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > >
