Oh dear - sorry if I have given the wrong impression about what Martyn was
saying.
We sometimes get at cross-purposes and get cross with one another but I
think we are on friendly enough terms not to take offense.
Apologies if you or he see it differently.
And now as Rob suggests - let's just listen to the music and enjoy.
Monica
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu>
To: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:17 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
I certainly can't speak for Martyn, but don't detect any suppositions of
"self-evident" terminology in what he's written to this thread. I can
speak for me, and what Martyn has written does speak to my own skepticism.
I perceive a great difference between "In spite of Meucci's article, I'm
not certain what 'chitarra' may refer to in every instance," and "Because
I'm not certain of the universal meaning of 'chitarra' in this context, it
must sometimes refer to a waisted instrument." The impression I've always
taken from this thread is the former concept, and it's one I personally
like. I don't mind occasional admission to not knowing or not having come
to a conclusion. As a matter of fact, I ordinarily prefer that state of
knowledge. It's much more plastic if/when contrary evidence ever does
arise.
Carry on.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:30 AM
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Contrary to what you suggest - we do know that "chitarriglia" is an
Italian term for a small guitar. I understand that it is an Italianized
version of the Spanish diminutive - guitarrilla. It is used to refer to
the instrument in 5-course guitar books fairly indiscrimately - i.e.
without necessarily implying a smaller instrument than usual. Pesori and
Granata come to mind.
I am objecting to the translation of "chitarra" as "guitar" in the passage
which you quote. I wouldn't translate the title as it appears on the
title
page at all. If I was translating the introduction on p.5 I would leave
the terms "chitarriglia" and "chitarra" untranslated with a note
explaining possible interpretations of them. It is axiomatic that when
translating terms like these that you try to find definitions of them in
dictionaries of the period.
I have to say that when I saw Valdambrini's book for the first time I did
wonder whether the description of the instrument on the title page as
"chitarra a cinque ordini" indicated that it was a different instrument
especially in view of the fact that he clearly says that that it has a
re-entrant tuning. However the illustration on the title page of Book 1
shows a cherub playing a 5-course guitar with the courses and peg holes
clearly visible. The music and the notation is in line with other
collections of music for 5-course guitar. It seems fairly certain that it
is for 5-course guitar.
Asioli's books were printed in the 1670s by which time it seems that it
was no longer necessary to include the qualifier "spagnola".
What puzzles me is the way you seem to assume that it is self evident that
the term "chitarra" refers to a 4-course guitar when actually you have
never put forward any positive evidence to support your view.
As Stuart pointed out we tend to look at things from an English point of
view and needless to say everyone from Alexander Bellow to James Tyler and
your good self, taking in Frederick Grunfeld and Harvey Turnbull and a few
others en route have simply assumed that anything called a chitarra or
guitarra must be a figure of 8 shaped guitar.
I am surprised that you appear to be dismissing Meucci's article as
"nothing more than ad hoc speculation" just because it seems to undermine
you preconceived ideas about what these terms might mean.
Part of the problem may be that I have tended to refer to the chitarra as
a "small lute or mandore". It would obviously be better simply to refer
to it as a small lute leaving the mandore out of it. It's actual make up
may have varied over the years.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:28 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Dear Monica,
Some of what you say about Calvi's collection makes sense - that the
intabulated pieces are different from anything else in the 5-course
repertoire.
But I'm puzzled why you object to translating 'chitarra' as 'guitar' in
the context of Calvi's collection which contains mostly Alfabeto pieces
and not just those later intabulated Sounate. Or are you suggesting
that if the qualifier 'alla Spagnola' is not attached to 'chitarra'
then it's always a lute shaped instrument! This seems an extreme
position to adopt. By this test the 'chitarra' specified by, for
example Calvi, Valdambrini and Asioli (which don't have the qualifier
'alla Spagnola' or similar on their title pages) are all for the lute
shaped instrument. Note that I left ' chitarriglia' alone since we
don't know what it was/is.....
From what you say (below) about Calvi's instruments it seems you
believe both were lute shaped instruments but one 'standard' sized
(whatever that) and one smaller. Is this really your position?
regards
Martyn
PS Why would anyone suggest translating 'vihuela' as 'guitar' (or even
'guitarra', etc) - the etymology of the two are are quite distinct.
But I recall at least one early English source (an inventory I think)
calls them vialls (viols)......
M
--- On Tue, 29/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "William Samson" <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January, 2013, 13:13
Well as regards the instrument illustrated - I'll set the cat among the
pigeons and suggest that it might be tuned in the same
way as the baroque guitar. It is very interesting that it is a
lute-shaped
5-course instrument.
As Martyn has pointed out, the second section of Calvi's "Intavolatura
di
chitarra e chitarriglia" has a
number of pieces in Italian tablature.
Calvi says of these 'Le seguente Suonate possono servire anche per la
Chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra" .
Martyn has translated this as 'The following Suonate can also serve
for the
Chitarriglia, but they are really for the Guitar" .But he is already
reading his prejudices into what Calvi says by assuming that "chitarra"
in
Italian means the same thing as "guitar" in English and that it is
appropriate to translate it in this way. It is untranslatable.
This is the problem with translating things as anyone who has tried
will
know. There are many circumstances when it is not possible to find an
exact
equivalent for specialist terms. No-one would translate "vihuela" as
"guitar".
The question is "Why should Calvi differentiate between a small and a
standard sized instrument when clearly both were capable of playing
exactly
the same music and often did"?
The most important point is that the music in tablature is very
different
from anything else in the 5-course repertoire. Not only does it not
use
alfabeto; there are no five part chords at all and no suggestion that
the
four part ones should be strummed. The repertoire and the style of the
music is also a bit old fashioned.
It seems unlikely that the instrument that Calvi refers to is a
5-course
guitar; more likely to be a 5-course lute.
Foscarini of course also included arrangements of lute music in his
great
work - and these are similarly different from what was considered to be
the
appropriate style for the 5-course instrument.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Samson" <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Davide Rebuffa" <[2]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Martyn
Hodgson"
<[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: <[4]pie...@vantichelen.name>; "Monica Hall"
<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
"Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:51 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
> Hi,
>
> [1][7]http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7 - on my Skydrive again.
>
> Not a 4c instrument this time, but one with 5 courses. Looks like
a
> small lute, nothing definite can be said about the pegbox shape.
No
> indication of octave stringing. The painting looks like first half
of
> the 17th century, but I've no idea who the painter is. The
presence of
> an archlute suggests Italian, but who knows? - Some musicians
travelled
> widely and were no doubt intrigued by the instruments they
encountered
> in other countries. They might even have brought examples home
with
> them.
>
> The question is - How was it tuned and used?
>
> Answers on a postcard please, . . .
>
> Bill
>
> PS There's a surviving 5c instrument, not unlike this one, shown
on
> page 91 of "The Lute in Europe 2".
>
> --
>
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
3.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pie...@vantichelen.name
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://tinyurl.com/aped6x7
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