Hi--yes that was 2004 in Cleveland. I didn't have plans or a kit but I
would modify existing guitars. I started building them again this year.
They actually work quite well.
Sterling
__________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
To: Sterling <spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Franz Mechsner <franz.mechs...@gmx.de>; Bruno Correia
<bruno.l...@gmail.com>; lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Sterling-
Didn't I see one of your original prototypes for this at Cleveland,
back
around 2006? The poor man's instant 13 course solution! I remember you
had a conversion kit, or plans for such, as well.
One can of course buy just about any configuration desired for what one
very fine builder calls "a shitload of dollars".
I actually once commissioned Ralph Novak to build me a 10 string, fan
fret, bent archtop (a la early English viols- John Rose) steel-string
guitar, but unfortunately (or fortunately) the deal fell through.
Dan
On 8/23/2013 11:08 AM, Sterling wrote:
> I have developed something I call the Weiss Guitar. It's a guitar
with 13 or 14 strings tuned like a baroque lute or even a g archlute.
It works quite well. There are a few other people making these
multi-string guitars but they cost even more than lutes.
> Sterling
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:
>
>> One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that
there is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days;
I tried one once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing
rather wide. Hmmmm!?!
>>
>> On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
>>> Franz;
>>>
>>> Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me
quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an
instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but
provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar
acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela.
I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at aA5; it works best as a
fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to
the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is
no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar
is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far
more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical
guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity
(on most guitars) if played without nails.
>>>
>>> One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure
model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the
salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone
color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo
prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work
out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very
hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound
without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good
touch on all other courses as well.
>>>
>>> While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the
doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and
probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But
we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a
7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated
preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and
later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?)
while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as
1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal
of polyphony.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote:
>>>> Dear Bruno,
>>>>
>>>> I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander
Batov and
>>>> am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte
for
>>>> several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial
reasons.
>>>> I miss that beautiful instrument a lot.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so
I
>>>> estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my
vihuela. There
>>>> is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of
the
>>>> others - every of these has something the others have not and
the other
>>>> way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to
purists of
>>>> any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre
Burguete who
>>>> invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the
house
>>>> with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful
memory. He
>>>> plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique
somewhat
>>>> different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the
Liuto
>>>> Forte best.
>>>>
>>>> So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family
are
>>>> beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they
can only
>>>> be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment.
>>>>
>>>> If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale
between
>>>> early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the
guitar on
>>>> the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than
to the
>>>> early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position
closer to
>>>> early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without
nails.
>>>> But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound
>>>> characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument.
>>>>
>>>> It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range
and
>>>> variability of sound characteristics which can neither be
covered by a
>>>> modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the
strings feel
>>>> somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less
force.
>>>> This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar.
Overall,
>>>> to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which
serves
>>>> polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a
guitar
>>>> often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too
strong"
>>>> while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better
balance
>>>> between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the
possibilities
>>>> that open up with the enlarged bass range and the variability
made
>>>> possible by the family of instruments.
>>>>
>>>> One may well say, the lute family is all one needs and be happy
with
>>>> this. I have nothing to say against such a stance except that
this is
>>>> only spoken from a certain taste and viewpoint which is open to
>>>> discussion to say the least. I myself do much welcome a new
family of
>>>> instruments which mirrors the world of lutes in a way the
violin family
>>>> mirrors the viol family. I feel quite strange seeing them
dismissed in
>>>> a sentence, called them "fake lutes" etc. Couldn't one call,
with equal
>>>> right, a modern violin a "fake viol", or a modern guitar a
"fake
>>>> guitar" as it is not a Renaissance or Baroque guitar, or a Bach
concert
>>>> played by a modern orchestra a "fake concert". There are
certainly
>>>> people who do so... I see no reason why I shouldn't love all of
these
>>>> instruments and ways of playing music (if well done of
course...). As
>>>> said, there's nothing to say against different tastes and
viewpoints
>>>> here, but much to say against dogmatic and dismissing
viewpoints. (By
>>>> the way, the Liuto Forte team was, awarded the European
Innovation
>>>> Award for Musical Instruments in 1999 given by Robert Schuman
>>>> Foundation and the Europaeische Kulturstiftung. So it seems I'm
not the
>>>> only one with my high esteem.)
>>>>
>>>> The Liuto Forte sounds well also without nails. Thus you can
play
>>>> romantic music without nails to an astonishing effect. It
sounds quite
>>>> intimate and soft. I never played a parlor guitar thus I cannot
compare
>>>> but I loved the possibility to use the Liuto Forte in this way
which is
>>>> not possible with the modern guitar. You can also play lute
music
>>>> without nails which produces - in my view - a sound which quite
>>>> deviates from normal guitar sound and may give more justice to,
say,
>>>> Renaissance lute music as a guitar would. I played some English
>>>> Renaissance music without nails in a room filled with about 200
not
>>>> always silent people sitting around tables, on the occasion of
a
>>>> Christmas celebration. It worked really well.
>>>>
>>>> Professional guitarists seem to like, in addition, that Liuto
Fortes
>>>> can be well heard in ensembles.
>>>>
>>>> In sum I would say: if you like the sound a Liuto Forte you can
enjoyed
>>>> that beautiful instrument its own right and also play it in
concert
>>>> simply because you like it. Depending on what your equipment
and needs
>>>> are, there might be opportunities where you might prefer
playing a
>>>> Liuto Forte not only for subjective taste reasons but also for
>>>> practical reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Please take this as the opinion and experience of a non-expert
who
>>>> loves music and simply likes the Liuto Forte regarding sound
and
>>>> possibilities as well as regarding design.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Franz
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Dr. Franz Mechsner
>>>> Zum Kirschberg 40
>>>> D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
>>>> [2]franz.mechs...@gmx.de
>>>> +49(0)33841-441362
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
2. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
