That's a good observation, Bruno. The string tied to two buttons on the bowl
(as was my vandervogl) would not have been visible if it was only attached to a
shirt button or hook (tho I doubt that would be the case in all these images).
My question is - if a strap isn't being used and the left hand is holding the
lute steady while, say, standing - how do you jump positions to play upper
frets? For the life of me I've never gotten the hang of that.
I know I gas on about the V.lute but one more thing, the bowl is extremely
shallow. Its depth isn't significantly deeper - if at all - than a regular
guitar. this is very helpful and stable, I presume, if a strap is attached to
only the bowl. On the larger semicircle bowl of a Gerle, wouldn't the lute
would simply roll down (belly facing the floor) causing a constant battle to
hold it upright?
Sean
On Oct 2, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Bruno Figueiredo wrote:
That's interesting. Watching all the pictures I noticed that none of
them show the player with a strap. Therefore, they are holding the
instrument by the neck (as there is no other way without a strap) and
not fretting notes on the fingerboard. In fact the ones that could be
doing so didn't need it because their right hand is in a way as if
holding a plectrum - probably playing a single line. This is indeed so
in the Cantigas de Santa Maria example, the thumb is opened just
holding the instrument.
The only conclusion I have from looking at these examples is that the
use of a strap is not a historical one (at least until the 16th
century).
2015-10-02 4:54 GMT-03:00 jmpoirier2 <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:
Please have a look at this page I put up a couple of years ago...
[2]http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
Best to all,
Jean-Marie
-------- Message d'origine --------
De : jelmaa <[3]jel...@gmail.com>
Date : 01/10/2015 23:50 (GMT+01:00)
A : lutelist Net <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Thumb-over
I think the terms 'common' and 'replete' are very exaggerated for
19th
century guitar repertoire. The LH thumb is used occasionally, but
almost only in Viennese/Austrian solo repertoire, not in French or
Spanish music. For it to work you need a guitar with a very thin
neck,
and it still messes up your left hand technique (in my experience,
playing on original 19th C French & Viennese guitars).
Jelma van Amersfoort
On Oct 1, 2015, at 22:43 , G. C. wrote:
> Hey Chris, that's really interesting. So the 19th century
repertoire is
> replete with this technique? I'm surprized and feel there is
much
to
> this matter, which hasn't been thoroughly analyzed yet. :)
G.
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Christopher Wilke
> <[1][5]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> The technique was common in 19th century guitar playing,
where
it
> was
> often marked with a "^". It does have some advantages and
there
> are
> spots where it facilitates fewer chord shape changes. In
that
> repertoire, I haven't encountered any pieces that I
absolutely
> couldn't
> finger without the thumb over the neck. (I did, however,
perform
> one
> contemporary piece in which the only way I could figure
out
how
> to get
> a particular combination of notes was to use the left hand
thumb.
> This
> was not due to cleverness on the composer's part, but
rather
> because he
> wasn't a guitarist at all.)
> I suspect that some lute players did this and some avoided
it.
> There
> might be the odd piece that absolutely requires it. There
also
> might be
> some performance practice insights one could gain from
> experimenting
> with it, but due to the risk of wrist injury, I'd be
hesitant
to
> make a
> regular practice of using it all the time. Even in the
19th
> century, it
> wasn't universal. Sor, for one, disapproved of it.
> Chris
> [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> On Oct 1, 2015, 12:01:01 PM, G. C. wrote:
> One obscure feature of plucking which has always
fascinated
but
> eluded
> me is the technique of using also the thumb to play on the
lower
> strings. Supposedly mainly feasible on 6 course
instruments
and a
> narrow neck, it has apparently been in vogue and an open
"secret"
> for
> the initiated since the days of Francesco at least (see
famous
> painting
> by Giulio Campi on the cover of Doug's History of the Lute
if
it
> indeed
> depicts such a practice). I know that it is very common in
Rock,
> (where
> its so widespread, that it has to be meaningful somehow).
To
me,
> (classically trained), it looks bizarre, and more like
someone
> has
> learned to play the wrong way. But it has to have at least
some
> advantages, as it seems to be so popular (at least among
the
rock
> music
> pluckers). Not only for barrA", particularly chords where
the
> index
> presses on a fret in front of the fret that the thumb is
stopping
> look
> bewildering. Might there be an ergonomic/finger mechanical
> reason?
> (Concert playing for hours so thereby avoiding carpal
tunnel
> syndrome?)
> Is there someone here who could explain the inner workings
and/or
> advantages of this technique in a simple way or point to a
> website, are
> there any uses for it in lute-playing (skewed barrA"?),
and
does
> the
> practice have a consensus name?
> Best regards
> G
> --
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>
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--
Bruno Figueiredo
Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o
historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba.
Doutor em PrA!ticas Interpretativas pela
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
--
References
1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
2. http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
3. mailto:jel...@gmail.com
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. https://yho.com/footer0
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. https://yho.com/footer0
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
