Well, you can't really play with ease holding the neck of the lute, we
all know that. Specially if you have frets tied on... Even if the
player just arrived at that position for a second he would still have
trouble to move back to normal position. It may seem weird but
according to Jeffrey J. Noonan (The Guitar in America) there is
evidence for playing that way (holding the neck) on the 19th c. guitar
in America (pictures and descriptions). Btw violinists and mandolinists
hold the neck of the instrument too.
2015-10-02 16:56 GMT-03:00 Sean Smith <[1]lutesm...@mac.com>:
That's a good observation, Bruno. The string tied to two buttons on
the bowl (as was my vandervogl) would not have been visible if it
was only attached to a shirt button or hook (tho I doubt that would
be the case in all these images).
My question is - if a strap isn't being used and the left hand is
holding the lute steady while, say, standing - how do you jump
positions to play upper frets? For the life of me I've never gotten
the hang of that.
I know I gas on about the V.lute but one more thing, the bowl is
extremely shallow. Its depth isn't significantly deeper - if at all
- than a regular guitar. this is very helpful and stable, I presume,
if a strap is attached to only the bowl. On the larger semicircle
bowl of a Gerle, wouldn't the lute would simply roll down (belly
facing the floor) causing a constant battle to hold it upright?
Sean
On Oct 2, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Bruno Figueiredo wrote:
That's interesting. Watching all the pictures I noticed that none
of
them show the player with a strap. Therefore, they are holding the
instrument by the neck (as there is no other way without a strap)
and
not fretting notes on the fingerboard. In fact the ones that could
be
doing so didn't need it because their right hand is in a way as if
holding a plectrum - probably playing a single line. This is
indeed so
in the Cantigas de Santa Maria example, the thumb is opened just
holding the instrument.
The only conclusion I have from looking at these examples is that
the
use of a strap is not a historical one (at least until the 16th
century).
2015-10-02 4:54 GMT-03:00 jmpoirier2
<[1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:
Please have a look at this page I put up a couple of years
ago...
[2][3]http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
Best to all,
Jean-Marie
-------- Message d'origine --------
De : jelmaa <[3][4]jel...@gmail.com>
Date : 01/10/2015 23:50 (GMT+01:00)
A : lutelist Net <[4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Thumb-over
I think the terms 'common' and 'replete' are very exaggerated
for
19th
century guitar repertoire. The LH thumb is used occasionally,
but
almost only in Viennese/Austrian solo repertoire, not in French
or
Spanish music. For it to work you need a guitar with a very
thin
neck,
and it still messes up your left hand technique (in my
experience,
playing on original 19th C French & Viennese guitars).
Jelma van Amersfoort
On Oct 1, 2015, at 22:43 , G. C. wrote:
> Hey Chris, that's really interesting. So the 19th century
repertoire is
> replete with this technique? I'm surprized and feel there is
much
to
> this matter, which hasn't been thoroughly analyzed yet. :)
G.
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Christopher Wilke
> <[1][5][6]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> The technique was common in 19th century guitar playing,
where
it
> was
> often marked with a "^". It does have some advantages and
there
> are
> spots where it facilitates fewer chord shape changes. In
that
> repertoire, I haven't encountered any pieces that I
absolutely
> couldn't
> finger without the thumb over the neck. (I did, however,
perform
> one
> contemporary piece in which the only way I could figure
out
how
> to get
> a particular combination of notes was to use the left hand
thumb.
> This
> was not due to cleverness on the composer's part, but
rather
> because he
> wasn't a guitarist at all.)
> I suspect that some lute players did this and some avoided
it.
> There
> might be the odd piece that absolutely requires it. There
also
> might be
> some performance practice insights one could gain from
> experimenting
> with it, but due to the risk of wrist injury, I'd be
hesitant
to
> make a
> regular practice of using it all the time. Even in the
19th
> century, it
> wasn't universal. Sor, for one, disapproved of it.
> Chris
> [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> On Oct 1, 2015, 12:01:01 PM, G. C. wrote:
> One obscure feature of plucking which has always
fascinated
but
> eluded
> me is the technique of using also the thumb to play on the
lower
> strings. Supposedly mainly feasible on 6 course
instruments
and a
> narrow neck, it has apparently been in vogue and an open
"secret"
> for
> the initiated since the days of Francesco at least (see
famous
> painting
> by Giulio Campi on the cover of Doug's History of the Lute
if
it
> indeed
> depicts such a practice). I know that it is very common in
Rock,
> (where
> its so widespread, that it has to be meaningful somehow).
To
me,
> (classically trained), it looks bizarre, and more like
someone
> has
> learned to play the wrong way. But it has to have at least
some
> advantages, as it seems to be so popular (at least among
the
rock
> music
> pluckers). Not only for barrA", particularly chords where
the
> index
> presses on a fret in front of the fret that the thumb is
stopping
> look
> bewildering. Might there be an ergonomic/finger mechanical
> reason?
> (Concert playing for hours so thereby avoiding carpal
tunnel
> syndrome?)
> Is there someone here who could explain the inner workings
and/or
> advantages of this technique in a simple way or point to a
> website, are
> there any uses for it in lute-playing (skewed barrA"?),
and
does
> the
> practice have a consensus name?
> Best regards
> G
> --
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--
Bruno Figueiredo
Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o
historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba.
Doutor em PrA!ticas Interpretativas pela
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
--
References
1. mailto:[14]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
2. [15]http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
3. mailto:[16]jel...@gmail.com
4. mailto:[17]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:[18]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. [20]https://yho.com/footer0
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9. mailto:[22]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. [24]https://yho.com/footer0
12. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Bruno Figueiredo
Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o
historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba.
Doutor em PrA!ticas Interpretativas pela
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
--
References
1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com
2. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
3. http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
4. mailto:jel...@gmail.com
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. https://yho.com/footer0
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. https://yho.com/footer0
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
15. http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html
16. mailto:jel...@gmail.com
17. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
18. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20. https://yho.com/footer0
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. https://yho.com/footer0
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
