Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth............... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: '........Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way.......'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way....... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. ----- Forwarded message ----- From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well...., are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÆ la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÆ la guitare et au luth Lex -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: [2][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6][12]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7][13]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8][14]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start................ Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9][15]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10][16]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > Dear collective wisdom, > From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around > since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta > (who we know had > to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his > fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÆÃâ ÃÆ Ã ©e had found > a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their > strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > > "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In > the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like > pearl[s]" > /Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11][17]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12][18]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. [20]http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 2. mailto:[21]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[22]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[23]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:[24]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [25]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ 7. mailto:[26]maan7...@yahoo.com 8. mailto:[27]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:[28]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:[29]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:[30]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:[31]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Hidden links: 15. [33]http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 16. [34]http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com 7. mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com 8. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ 13. mailto:maan7...@yahoo.com 14. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 18. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 20. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 21. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 23. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 24. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 25. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ 26. mailto:maan7...@yahoo.com 27. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 28. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 29. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 30. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 31. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 34. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html
