Dear Lex,
I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time -
I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string
parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is
what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period
guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to
the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.'
Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails
is entirely up to you.
regards
Martyn
On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
<lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Martyn.
Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear
that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a
sensitive issue.
Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for
no nails was based on.
Best wishes, Lex
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45
Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
<[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex,
You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email
which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's
worth...............
Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players:
'........Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of
modern
guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with
the
occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming
evidence
for the historical practice - either way.......'.
regards
Martyn
On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
<[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote:
A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and
Paul?
The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly
the
same, and their inferences differ little indeed.
Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it
still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I
understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is
based
on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that
that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice?
From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the
theorbo.
Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal
experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the
discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If
anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard
against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a
comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of
connecting the dots ourselves.
In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into
account
the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall,
because
the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my
experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control
if
we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This
certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo).
To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been
played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar
arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and
Rebours
agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are
evident.
Best wishes, Lex
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22
Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex,
Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much
of
it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar
players
giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early
source
mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical
practice - either way.......
So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH
nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the
plucking finger.
regards
M.
----- Forwarded message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[4][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: 'Lute List' <[5][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
<[6][11]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear Lex,
Well...., are you referring to the report that said C couldn't
play
because he'd broken a nail?
This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail
which
was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing
impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the
right
hand.
Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware?
regards
M
On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
<[7][12]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote:
On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them.
The
influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists
(perhaps
also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated.
Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their
nails
when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well
aware of that.
There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail
subject,
written by Gerard Rebours:
[1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours)
Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours)
Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec
onglesÃÆÃâ
la
guitare et au luth
Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours)
Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec
onglesÃÆÃâ
la
guitare et au luth
Lex
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [2][8][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3][9][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49
Aan: [4][10][15]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List
<[5][11][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some
theorbo
players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the
unequivocal
conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with
nails.
And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee
generally
expected and followed himself
Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed
account
from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this
into
your
search.
[6][12][17]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/
MH
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson
<[7][13][18]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo
player
who
explicitly played without fingernails?
Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
<[8][14][19]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
Hear! hear!.
And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means
that
De
Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths
start................
Martyn
On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
<[1][9][15][20]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket
-
that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was
given
500
Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of
Savoy
at
the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
Monica
> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
<[1][2][10][16][21]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
> From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has
been
around
> since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like
Piccinini,
Corbetta
> (who we know had
> to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and
still
pay
his
> fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de
VisÃÆÃâ ÃÆÃ ¢ ÃÆÃâ
ÃÆ Ã ©e
had
found
> a way for them to get it to work without shredding and
tearing
their
> strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>
> "the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly,
and
cleanly; In
> the manner that all small touches of the string may be
schietto,
like
> pearl[s]"
> /Magnus
>
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