Hi, all. If my memory serves there are p's, q's, r's, and s's in Holborne's cittern book. I don't remember what he did about c's. Stay safe, dry, and well. Best to all and keep playing. Chris.
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 11:22 AM Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. <[1]sa...@gerbode.net> wrote: Thanks, David. Arguably, that kind of a c could be easily confused with an r, but as r is rarely, if ever, seen in lute tab (has anyone ever seen it?), this isn't a problem. I like the "r" form of the letter c because it is clear and unambiguous. Also because I cut my teeth on Varietie and on English lute mss. In early days, I used to hand-copy a lot of sources and, having terrible handwriting, I used the "r" style for clarity. I also find tab letters on spaces easier to read because the ciphers are not transected by a line. And, yes, this makes it easier to add readable fingerings. It's all about clarity and readability. --Sarge On 8/4/2020 02:17, David Van Edwards wrote: Martin is right, this is just the standard English way of writing C in all sorts of contexts not just lute tablature. To illustrate I've uploaded a small section of an English will from 1574 which reads "mercy to receive" and in it you can see the normal form of the R as well as the C and the E [1][2]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R%20for%20C.htm Best wishes, David At 08:34 +0200 4/8/20, Martin Shepherd wrote: The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song prints as well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of writing "c". My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on the lines rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become quite common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to open up a few more worms, I find French tablature very convenient because (although I read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings, which can get very confusing in Italian tab. M On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Tristan von Neumann [2]<[1][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c To: [[3]2][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]<[3][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Ah yes. I forgot about those. I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately trying to make things unreadable. Morlaye is the best imho. On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote: > Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland à ¢Varietie of lute lessons' and Barley's à ¢New book of tablature' both have à ¢r' for à ¢c' although the latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect that the Varietie of lute lessons may have had an undue influence in modern times because it was the first facsimile that many of us who were involved in lute music in those days owned in the Scott edition. > Best wishes, Denys > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann [5]<[4][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: >> >> Good question Sean... >> >> I think there's no real development in this. >> >> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica uses "on-line" fonts, >> and "c". >> >> This is very annoying sometimes if you want to play from the facsimile... >> >> In manuscripts, Marsh Lute Book uses c, it's often very confusing next >> to the e. >> >> French "above line" prints from earlier decades (Morlaye, Le Roy) also >> use c but I find those prints very readable. >> >> I don't recall "r" in prints, but maybe I missed some. >> >> >>> On 04.08.20 00:56, Sean Smith wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> There's a long tradition of scribing the cipher 'r' in place of 'c' in >>> manuscripts of lute tablature. It's quick and easy and serves to >>> differentiate a 'c' from an 'e'. My question is, did this carry over >>> into historic printed tablatures with standardized typefaces? Can >>> anyone suggest examples? Lute, guitar, mandora, etc? >>> I don't recall any in Renaissance prints--tho I could easily be >>> wrong--but I know I don't have enough experience with baroque >>> tablatures! >>> Tia, Sean >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5][6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> Actually, the letter that looks like an "r" is actually a "c" in English secretary hand. That's probably why the "r" is featured in English sources. If you scroll down to the chart of miniscule letters here [6][7][8]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography -fo r-ever yone-cracking-old.html you'll see various form(s) of c. Tom -- References 1. [8]mailto:[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [9]mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [10]mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [11]mailto:[12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. [12][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [13][14]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography- for- everyone-cracking-old.html -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [14][15]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([15][16]sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [16][17]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." -- References 1. [18]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R for C.htm 2. mailto:[1][19]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 3. mailto:[20]2][21]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[3][22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:[4][23]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 6. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [25]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for- ever 8. mailto:[26]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 9. mailto:[27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:[28]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:[29]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 12. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [31]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for- everyone-cracking-old.html 14. [32]https://www.avast.com/antivirus 15. mailto:[33]sa...@gerbode.net 16. [34]http://www.gerbode.net/ -- References 1. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 2. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R for C.htm 3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-fo 9. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for- 15. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 16. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 17. http://www.gerbode.net/ 18. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R 19. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 20. mailto:2 21. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 23. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 25. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-ever 26. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 27. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 28. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 29. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 31. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-everyone-cracking-old.html 32. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 33. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 34. http://www.gerbode.net/