Hello Rick, On Thu, 2015-08-06 at 12:40 -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Mark Trickett ([email protected]): > > > The fact it does binary logs is a _very_ _major_ defect in my opinion > > and experience. > > For completeness, I'll note that it's pretty easy to disable the handoff > of logging information to systemd-journald and substitute a handoff to > rsyslog or syslog-ng, instead. So, for example, the Debian package for > systemd defaults to rsyslog as system logger. > > (Your point is of course well taken about the wrongheadedness of > systemd-journald binary logfiles, which tells you all you need to know > about the wisdom of entrusting system architecture to these particular > coders.)
Thank you for this response. It contains most of what I will need when I do an install of Jessie. One query, what window managers have you tried without systemd, and what you find particularly good or bad. For myself, I find the older desktop metaphor more effective and productive. > > I noted that it is possible to put openrc on Debian 8. I shall need to > > do a bit of research. Some notes from you and/or Rick Moen would be very > > appreciated. > > apt-get install openrc > > Reboot. > > apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd The basics are remarkably simple, but the completeness that follows is very appreciated. > Note that said command will remove these Debian packages if they are > present: > > o 5 GNOME packages that directly on systemd: gnome-bluetooth, > gnome-settings-daemon, gdm3, gnome-core, gnome-disk-utility. > (This is essentially the GNOME requirement for systemd-logind > for 'seat' login credentials, which has become problematic to > satisfy without systemd because the Freedesktop.org coders > orphaned ConsoleKit, and ConsoleKit2 isn't yet usable last I heard.) Interesting, on what has been done, and what has not been done. Does make changing desktops from Gnome a necessity. I have found the changed direction of Gnome less productive for me, but some of the lighter ones with more traditional workflows more to my preference. > o 10 debian-installer* packages that depend directly on systemd > because the Debian 8.0 default installer provides systemd > > o 1 WindowMaker dock applet for shutting down a machine by clicking a > button (wmshutdown). > > o 5 packages that depend on systemd because they're systemd-related: > (live-config-systemd, libpam-systemd, systemd-dbg, systemd-sysv, > libpam-systemd). > > o 1 GNOME-affiliated display manager that requires either libpam-system > or consolekit (lightdm). > > o 6 assorted other packages that require that systemd _or_ something > else be present (mate-power-manager, solaar, libguestfs0, sogo, > ligthttpd, lxsession). Details omitted here but you can look them up > in package metadata. > > o 2 packages from the core Freedesktop.org stack -- the guys > responsible for most of the furious code churn in GNOME -- that > depend on libpam-systemd (policykit-1, udisks2). > > o 1 wireless/Bluetooth network manager from GNOME that depends on > libpam-systemd (network-manager). So it also removes NetworkManager? There are alternate ways of coping with changing networks, I need to find references again. I have found the way NetworkManager tries to handle the connections is not the way I use my PC or notebook. There are bits that work, but also bits which it ripe royally leaves me up the proverbial creek without a paddle. > o pcmanfm, daisy-player, and a couple of other obscure apps that require > policykit-1 that in turn requires systemd One depending on policykit-1 > that is not at all obscure, is a rather infuriating and pointless > dependency hairball, and merits rebuilding the package if you need > it (hplip). This is of significance. I have HP LJ4L and LJ4P printers, although needing a bit of servicing, and a HP LJ4Plus. The latter runs under Postscript, so may be less of an issue. It is a significant package for many of us. > Measures to keep systemd from being installed in the future: > > echo -e 'Package: systemd\nPin: origin ""\nPin-Priority: -1' > > /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd > echo -e '\n\nPackage: *systemd*\nPin: origin ""\nPin-Priority: -1' >> > /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd > > If your system uses multiarch (32 and 64bit packages), do this too, to > pin the 64bit version of systemd: > > echo -e '\nPackage: systemd:amd64\nPin: origin ""\nPin-Priority: -1' >> > /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd > > In other multiarch cases where amd64 is the default architecture, you > may have to pin the i386 package: > > echo -e '\nPackage: systemd:i386\nPin: origin ""\nPin-Priority: -1' >> > /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd This is valuable admin information, and a good example that I can use for related things where I want to effect changes. > Above is from my notes of changeover conducted on a virtual machine, so > I'm reasonably confident they're complete and correct. Getting rid of > udev/libudev1 and getting any replacement (eudev, mdev, vdev) to work > with the latest xserver-xorg packages is an experiment I've not yet > undertaken. > > A few things such as bsdutils and util-linux have started to depend on > libsystemd0, but that seems harmless. Thanks again. Regards, Mark Trickett _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list [email protected] http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-main
