Hey Nick, Great post and one of the reasons I like this list. No slamming detected.
Like yourself, I'm reporting bugs to Apple all the time and giving the same feedback. Also like yourself (I think anyway?) I write my own software so believe me, oh gods believe me, I know all about bug-tracking etc. I mention this to give a context to my replies. Ok the Fleksy stuff. I've been chatting with the devs quite a bit so I won't comment too much more on that save to say that, as you suggest, their stuff can be incorporated into other apps in exactly the manner you describe. Now to the more substantive point. We're in 100% agreement on the issue of extensions. I'm not in the least thinking of jaws-style scripting; it's evil. I'll try (and given how tired I am with a young baby in the house probably fail) to convey what I mean. Jaws scripting essentially tries to fix apps that are broken. It adds functionality to a screenreader which makes apps accessible. (Relax gordon, I'm only mentioning it for context I'm not going to discuss it). When I talk of an "extension" I mean something akin to Fleksy that enhances the functionality of what's provided. It's an optional add-on if you will that doesn't detract from the original screenreader. So take the work I'm doing on mathematical accessibility. I have two choices; 1. create a self voicing app or 2. try to plug into a screenreader (voiceover in this case). That is a very specific contextual use that does not impinge on the other uses of the screenreader rather it enhances the functionality (sorry I can't say how) in an area not covered. Sorry if I gave the impression that I wanted to go down the old road used on other Os's and AT that couldn't be further from what I'm suggesting. I guess I'm talking about a flexible dynamic architecture which permits personalisation and adaptivity to both users and contexts of use. This, as you say in your mail, can be done (with effort, digging and knowledge of hidden APIS) on desktop but IOS is closed and I dont' like that as it makes my life as a researcher and developer miserable and awkward, and this makes me grumpy! *smile* All the best, and feel free to contact me offlist if you want more specifics as I probably won't be looking at the folder containing my mac-access mails for a bit so may not contribute more to this thread. Dónal On 21 Aug 2012, at 18:22, Nicolai Svendsen <chojiro1...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dónal > > Just to throw in my two cents also. > > Fleksy is a nice application because it lets you type incredibly fast, and > this even applies to when VoiceOver is off for sighted users. Sighted users > don't have to focus as much on what they're typing if they already know how > to touch-type, and it makes their typing speed infinitely better. Also, > because APIs exist which allow certain areas of the screen to accept regular > gestures, Fleksy being a case where this is used, this could technically be > incorporated into iOS as a global keyboard method. However, incorporating > this globally isn't as easy as it would be with a simple keyboard that does > not exist in iOS, such as the Emoji keyboard in iOS 4 because Developers need > to have certain APIs sandboxed or create an SDK, which Fleksy has done. In > this case, Apple would need to make it happen if you wanted something like > this to be globally available. Installing an application which lets you > select its input method as a keyboard in any text field is one thing, but > this is a completely different approach. > > As for OS X, lots of bugs still exist. However, speaking from the perspective > of someone who submits them and actively receives feedback on them when > something changes, it sometimes takes months for Apple to review the bugs you > send in. When they do review them and get back to you in detail, they often > tell you to reproduce it again in hope of the issue being fixed, or say that > they cannot reproduce it. It gets a lot more complicated when they can't > reproduce it, because a lot of bugs are sometimes machine-specific, or depend > on your configuration. If they depend on your configuration, it also depends > on how VoiceOVer is configured, how you installed OS X as well as how you > modified the application exhibiting the behaviour. Logs don't always tell you > everything. Secondly, fixing one bug sometimes breaks something else, which > is very common. I will say that some of these bugs have been around for a > very long time, and some features purely don't exist when they should be > available. Obviously, this just means Apple's engineers need to focus a bit > more on the smaller bugs which eventually add up and become very annoying. > Every time I've talked to their engineers, the critical bugs seem to be the > most important ones. This is understandable, but the issue seems to be that > when a lot of these bugs have been ironed out, the smaller bugs are left to > grow. Some of them are just difficult to deal with, such as the issue with > page loading which is apparently a bug that is very hard to fix. That bug is > just one example though, because some of those bugs are not so easy to fix if > you understand the technical aspects. I mention that because some people find > a bug and figure it'll be very easy to fix when it seems like a small glitch, > but what a good part of users don't realise is that a lot of these issues are > interconnected. Fix one thing, and you might break another. Again, the page > loading is a good example here. > > In the past, I have also mentioned issues that I have had which have not > plagued everyone else on the list who responded to my problem. This is > another case in point. > > Just to clarify. I'm not defending Apple, because I think, too, that some of > these bugs at least need to be put down and fixed even though Apple already > knows about them. That having been said, your note about "extensions" worries > me. I see two sides to this, however, and that is firstly that it can be an > advantage, at least in the case of OS X. OS X is a lot more open than iOS > because it doesn't limit you in the case of modifications if you know how, > and this also includes VoiceOVer. iOS is different because everything relies > on Sandboxing unless you jailbreak. My concern about extensions, though, is > that people might become dependent on them. Plugging in to the screen reader > makes me think of JAWS on the Windows side where everything is scripted and > you can make changes to an application through scripts to make it easier to > use. Depending on what you'd use extensions for, I wouldn't consider them a > benefit personally. You can already use AppleScript to make some tasks > easier, but they're not direct extensions or modifications to VoiceOVer. You > can extend VoiceOVer's features if you know how to do it, but it's > painstaking and requires a lot of effort to get to what you want. For > instance, you can get tables to read properly in any application which uses > them by plugging in to the right frameworks, but by making use of > VoiceOVer-specific technology which Apple does not leak on the Developer > website. > > I'm speaking as someone who's had intimate experience with VoiceOVer, and > keep in mind I'm not at all slamming your post. I actually agree, but it's > worth getting both sides. > > Regards, > Nicolai > On Aug 21, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> > wrote: > >> Travis, >> >> I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying the >> "blind tax" that seems to be on these apps. However I'll also add that I've >> begun to chat with the developers (*smile* as a result of a mildly offensive >> and rather negative tweet about the app) and they are very nice guys who are >> extremely committed to what they are doing. >> >> Wearing my usability hat for a second, I think what they're trying to do >> makes sense. I don't know about you, but I don't hit letters accurately >> 100% of the time. So in essence all they are doing is building in error >> correction for inaccurate keypresses. That's an over simplification but in >> essence that's how I see it. Now from the standpoint of the research, taken >> heuristically as it were, that makes sense to me. Allowing the device to >> "assist" or "second guess" the user for whom traditional input doesn't quite >> work is a good idea. >> >> Where it falls down in my view is the fact that this input method isn't >> available globally. So one cannot, as it were, select the "fleksy keyboard" >> as opposed to apple's own variants. As an aside, they tell me that >> developers can in fact incorporate their work into their apps and they have >> had interest in this. >> >> What jumps out at me is that a software developer has seen a niche/gap in >> the market and filled it. The reason, and again this is pure opinion on my >> part, is that voiceover (whether on IOS or the desktop platforms) has >> stagnated. There, I've said it and now the apple fanboys/girls will no >> doubt create a strong rope made of iPhone cables with which to hang me from >> the nearest cellphone mast. However, let's think about it. We all (well >> certainly I and a number of my friends did) were delighted with the >> emergence of Alex, trackpad use, access to touchscreens etc. However what's >> happened since? We still have the same bugs, the gesture/keyboard >> interactions haven't been refined and software such as Pages, Numbers, >> Keynote and Preview still are not, in my opinion, usable to the extent they >> should be. >> >> So returning to Fleksy and what I think it shows. I think it shows that >> Apple don't have the monopoly on ideas. I think it shows the problems >> inherent in the design of voiceover on both mobile and desktop platforms in >> that developers cannot "plug in" to the screenreader and create extensions. >> That is bad, ladies and gentlemen because it means as long as we stick on >> Apple platforms, we've got to put up with what they give us and that, for >> the past few years hasn't been much. I now expect the usual blind response >> of "oh but we should all be grateful to apple because. (blah blah)" and all >> of that is perfect true. But how long do we have to remain grateful for? >> We're paying our money just like anyone else so should expect improvements >> in the user experience. There are seven, yes only seven, new voiceover >> features in mountain lion, and many bugs that have been there for years are >> still there. So yes I am delighted apple introduced a free screenreader, >> but they're happy too as they have got money from me (and other blind users) >> as a consequence that they otherwise wouldn't have received. >> >> I could wax lyrical on some theoretical analysis I've done on all this but >> most people would accuse me of being boring so I won't. >> >> that's my few cents worth on Fleksy, apple and the world according to Garp. >> >> Dónal >> On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Travis Siegel <tsie...@softcon.com> wrote: >> >>> Ahh, Donald, an excellent summary of the app, and exactly what I needed. >>> I couldn't figure out from previous emails what the point was, so thanks >>> for that. >>> It does sound like it could be a useful app. However, for now, I'll stick >>> with apple's method, I like it, and it works for me, and I'm relatively >>> quick, so I don't see a need to change everything now. :) >>> Yes, I'm a bit stuck in my ways. :) >>> Thanks for the explanation, it makes a whole lot of sense now. >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>> and worm-free! >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting >>> the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> >> Dónal Fitzpatrick >> dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie >> >> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >> and worm-free! >> >> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting >> the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free! > > Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting > the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. 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