Hi John Very well taken. You an I know only too well that some of the presumptuous statements in this thread are way off the mark. I won't say more because I'd head for trouble if I did. But although I do have some issues with Apple, come on, just look at the big picture. Just look at what Microsoft is now doing with Skype! Some of the features which used to be free now have to be paid for. You may say that isn't on topic with accessibility and you'd be right. But I'm trying to make the point that it's the tip of the ice burg. Furthermore, have you noticed any real accessibility improvements lately on any platform within the Skype domain?
I'm not going to et into a my toy's better than yours dispute and I urge others not too since it would take them off topic for this group. But let's be realistic about this. Remember that Apple did the accessibility industry a huge huge favour from the consumer's perspective by adding accessibility right out of the box to their desktop, notebook and mobile products. Just look at the price drops within some of the Windows vendors' products recently, for instance. It is no coincidence folks, those price drops were driven by market forces. Visually impaired people are joining the Apple fraternity in their droves. The accessibility developers and dealers whose products rely on other platforms are doing their very best to compete with Apple, and they are frequently starting false rumours. Why? It's obvious really, some of them are running scared. Apple represents a significant number of consumers who have deserted the more traditional accessibility platforms. Why? Well let's just sum it up by a statement made by Oscar Wilde, suitably modified to fit within current context: To lose one customer is understandable. To lose a thousand seems like carelessness. :) Yes, I have my issues with Apple. I made that clear in my post of about half an hour ago. But I will never again clutter up my bench space with hardware which cannot be serviced without paying several dealers and developers grossly inflated fees for what is, after all, an inferior product. Kind regards <--- Gordon Smith ---> <gor...@mac-access.net> Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: <http://twitter.com/maciosaccess> Skype: <skype:mac-access-dot-net?call> ------------------------------ On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:28, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: > OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most > ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world can > you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as Windows at > this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in OS X, I can > equally find in Windows. I know blind people productively using the Mac > every day for their work, and I can give you several testimonials from former > Windows users who will flat out tell you that Mac accessibility is superior > to that in Windows hands down. I just had this conversation with a client > who is a former JAWS user who was using Windows since 1994 and still uses > Windows because he paid for a SMA. > > In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to > legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or > concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since > Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not > satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general reflection > of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it perfect? Of > course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, especially since > I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I said, I can list just > as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an > operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on > about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many > cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. > > > > Take Care > > John D. Panarese > Director > Mac for the Blind > Tel, (631) 724-4479 > Email, j...@macfortheblind.com > Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com > > APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION > > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE > > MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > > > > > On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> > wrote: > >> Chris, >> >> Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are >> things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies >> to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. >> >> The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is >> still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more >> importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come >> up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be >> working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be >> introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. >> Neither happens. >> >> Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who >> want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this >> stage. >> >> Dónal >> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is >>> half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive >>> tool for the blind. >>> >>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. >>> We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream >>> press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap >>> Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each >>> time a new OS comes out. >>> >>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>> >>> Chris >>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've >>>> been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of >>>> accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on >>>> IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with >>>> justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU >>>> disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying >>>> on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as >>>> it's going to get. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Dónal >>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <ch...@clgproductions.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and >>>>> under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter >>>>> many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both >>>>> cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks >>>>> both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal >>>>> what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from >>>>> engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, >>>>> however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to >>>>> behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars >>>>> to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm >>>>> almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>> >>>>> Chris. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marri...@gmail.com> >>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <mac-access@mac-access.net> >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten >>>>> no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <joshkar...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care >>>>>>> (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in >>>>>>> Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this >>>>>>> goal. >>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in >>>>>>> error, please notify the sender and delete the message. 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However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>> School of Computing, >>>> Dublin City University, >>>> Glasnevin, >>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>> >>>> Email Disclaimer >>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >>>> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >>>> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >>>> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >>>> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >>>> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >>>> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >>>> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >>>> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >>>> e-mail." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> >> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >> School of Computing, >> Dublin City University, >> Glasnevin, >> Dublin 9, Ireland >> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >> >> Email Disclaimer >> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >> e-mail." >> >> >> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > > > Take Care > > John D. Panarese > Director > Mac for the Blind > Tel, (631) 724-4479 > Email, j...@macfortheblind.com > Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com > > APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION > > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE > > MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > > > > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
