Hopefully, this did not make the list the first time, as I might have sent
it has a draft this morning before it was complete.
Hi Chris,
Arrogance? Where do you get that from? Maybe, it came across that way in the
vehicle as text, but anyone who knows me knows I am the farthest thing from
arrogant. So, if it seemed that way to you or Mary, that was not my intent and
I apologize.
I made some general suggestions that have served me over the years from having
been on so many lists. The thing about lists is though some people subscribe
to multiple lists, many are on only one. Thus, information they might offer
is only seen on that list. For example, I know the area of web design and
VoiceOver compatibility was discussed on another list and someone made a
suggestion for an app and information on how to use it with VoiceOver. Heck if
I can recall who it was, what list and the application.
You also might want to you reread the tone and manner in which you have
posted as well, Chris. Some of your own comments, whether intended or not,
came off as rather arrogant and definitive. We often forget that our own
personal experiences do not necessarily reflect those of the majority, and what
we perceive as problems or shortcomings for an app or an operating system may
not be by others. You and Donald, for instance, seem to have a more
specialized situation than most folks and, thus, what you need and require is
different than what others do.
My suggestions to search other archives was not out of arrogance, but,
instead, experience. As I said, a lot of the complaints I have read in this
thread have been addressed in a number of work arounds and helpful suggestions.
No, not all, and it doesn’t solve the overall issue head on, but as I said,
just like with Windows, if there is a will, there is a way. I never inferred
you or anyone else hadn't tried to do so. I was pointing out that this list is
something that we all should go beyond if we can't get the answers or
information from our membership, as there could be other places where it can be
found. I'd say the same thing on other lists, including the one I run.
. As for my own Windows experience, to address Chris's assumptions, I use
Windows every day as well. I have to. I do training on that too for a
specific contract, and, well, to be honest, I like to keep on top of that just
for the times someone tries to imply or outright accuse me of not knowing
anything about Windows to speak with any knowledge. I have a Windows 7 laptop
and I still have my Win 7 desktop computers. They are kept up to date with the
latest screen reader updates and Windows updates. I do, thus, know Exactly
what I am talking about on that front. It also makes me very glad that I can
go back to my Macs when I am done working in that operating system. It's a
nice place to visit, but not a place I want to nor need to live any more.
As for my training, Chris, you can ask my clients what we cover and the extent
of what I do. You’d be surprised just how diverse and far I have had to go to
help people and prepare myself for training situations. As a trainer, I’ve
probably learned more about the Mac and Windows in the last 3 years than many
users will need to know in their lives. This is not spoken out of arrogance
either, but because of the reality that I Have to do so. I do not speak only
from personal observations about the Mac, but from the comments and
testimonials from clients. Reread my previous messages on that subject. Just
as the Mac may not be the system to solve someone's work needs, I just had a
situation in which Windows could not flit the tab either. It's a unique
situation in that specific types of applications are being used, so the client
is going to have to use both operating systems to accomplish things.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:48 PM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I totally agree with everything you have said.
>
> John, it appears you think I am being harsh an expressing an unfounded
> sweeping statement about Mac accessibility. My opinion is based on fact and
> experience. You have also assumed that I have not looked for solution either
> via Google or user group such as these which I think is rather arrogant. You
> have also admitted yourself that you do not know everything, but yet you were
> quick to slap me down for daring to ask more of the Mac years after they were
> so kind to give us a screen reader. I wonder if Photoshop users should
> downgrade to iPhoto, as it covers the basic right?
>
> John, how long is it since you have used Windows on a regular basis with up
> to date software? Yes, the Mac has improved since Tiger, but so has the
> scene on Windows and if u were able to put your feet in both camps you would
> understand where many of us advanced users require more than just editing RTF
> files, reading emails and using the read all command on a PDF.
> You would be able to appreciate how some tasks are much superior on Windows.
> This is partially due to competition between various screen reader vendors on
> Windows and the fact that bugs fixes and updates appear more regularly to the
> screen readers in comparison to the Mac. Talkback on Android also benefits
> from this approach.
>
> I can only assume you do not require the ability to create tables in
> documents, track changes and share documents, work with tagged PDF documents
> and be able to use their various elements. To be fair, Preview was only ever
> designed to.. well 'preview' I guess! So I suppose we can let Apple off for
> not including structured elements. I guess Adobe Reader should fill the gap
> here, as they have proven they can develop accessible software such as their
> e-book reading solution.. It is not all bad though, as I do like the way
> Voiceover announces that a word has been spelt incorrectly after hitting the
> spacebar. The equivalent on Windows is F7 which still does not check
> spelling as you type, despite sighted users getting this information live as
> a red underline appears to indicate an error.
>
> There is no way I would recommend any professional using Windows to switch to
> the Mac at this stage. I am not sure exactly what your training programme
> covers or what you use your Mac for on a daily basis. I am glad it meets
> your needs and I wonder if you ever did move back to Windows if you would be
> more at home with Dolphin's Guides software.
>
> Right, I am going to try and go back to sleep if the thunder and lightning
> allows me.
>
> Take care
>
> Chris
>
> On 22 Jul 2013, at 23:13, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John,
>> Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with
>> Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a
>> joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit
>> isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in
>> pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving
>> the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting
>> back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single
>> app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen
>> reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which
>> ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see
>> how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a
>> lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is
>> working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages.
>> You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility
>> as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to
>> make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've
>> seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to
>> not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making
>> statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly
>> call out re the Mac.
>> There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use
>> of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the
>> system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a
>> Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to
>> see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word
>> and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the
>> new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the
>> receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to
>> integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that
>> in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word.
>> Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I
>> can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a
>> specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that
>> may be encount
> er
>> ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in
>> an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is
>> the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and
>> something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be
>> sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the
>> business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers.
>>
>> I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that
>> the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or
>> even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't
>> want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do
>> that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all
>> with the Mac in the next several months.
>> Mary
>> Mary Otten
>> motte...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>>
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at
>> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>
>>
>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that
>> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security
>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something
>> unpredictable happen.
>>
>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by
>> visiting the list website at:
>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
>>
>
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>
> To reply to this post, please address your message to
> mac-access@mac-access.net
>
> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>
>
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that
> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security
> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something
> unpredictable happen.
>
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by
> visiting the list website at:
> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net
You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at
either the list's own dedicated web archive:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
or at the public Mail Archive:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>
As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable
happen.
Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting
the list website at:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
