I'm fairly new to the Mac world but I had been exposed to the concept of interacting from previous podcasts and discussions. So I didn't really have that much trouble with the concept of interacting. But that doesn't help your student. What I learned concerning interacting is when using the VO arrow keys, I could sail right past a group of radio buttons, table, list of objects or whatever. Once I would interact with any of those groups, then I could see the insides so to speak. Try the iTunes interface for example. Lots of interaction and uninteraction is necessary to get around there. But then again, this might blow her away if brought in too soon. I have seen instances where one can navigate around in tables without interacting with them but some of the overall behavior is affected. these differences are hard to explain for sure. that's where Veronica's suggestion of just diving in and trying with and without interacting to observe the differences. As frustrating as this might be to many people, the removal of interacting would have disasterous consequences to VO as we currently know it. Interacting with groups in Groups mode with Safari is an excellent concept when a website lends itself to it well.
I totally agree with you concerning practice. She really needs to find a good and practical use for the mac to get interested in trying to use it. I have Linux and Windows at home and when I got the mac, I took it up more slowly than I originally expected because it was always easier to go and use my Linux box to do a given task. I finally had to force myself to try and use a Mac solution for those same tasks to really get it down and move on. Now I feel comfortable doing these tasks on either platform smoothly. Maybe have her try and read some email or go to her favorite websites with the mac instead of her current methods. Maybe practical use might be more effective than a "practice script." Just some ideas here. On 6/5/12, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgillan...@gmail.com> wrote: > She did great last night, so let's just hope the pattern continues. > > Chris. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gigi > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Cc: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:21 AM > Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting > with items > > > Hi Chris > You may have already thought of this, but have you thought about asking > her why she's not practicing? She may be afraid that she's going to break > her computer if you're not fair to help her. She may also have other reasons > that she's not telling. After all, she's not lying to you. She could say > that she was practicing, even when she was not. > Regards > Gigi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 4, 2012, at 8:30 PM, "Christopher-Mark Gilland" > <clgillan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Being she only has 3 weeks, and constantly is admitting she's not > practicing at all... she's not paying me so I'm not out any money, gbut she > is waisting my time. I don't wanna be rude but I'm really at my limit. > Maybe I'm just too nice of a person. I do tend to tell it like it is most > of the time, but not when it's in a professional type environment. Then, I > try to refrane. > > Chris. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erik burggraaf > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 7:18 AM > Subject: Re: question for all voice over trainers: trouble interacting > with items > > > Hi Chris, Erik here from ebony consulting in toronto. I feel your > pain. > > > To comment on a couple of things that have been said, I actually find > that if you turn automatic interaction via tab key then things work more > like windows, in direct contrast to what others have said. > > > I also liked what Gigi said about sometimes when there's a disconnect > trying to teach the theory and apply it, you might be better off just > rolling with it. Teach a set of steps to accomplish a task and forget why > it works as long as it does. That's a more limited approach but it removes > the fear barrier as long as the set of steps works reliably. > > > All that assumes practice. 15 minutes a day is not really a hardship > for anyone. I always recommend that to my clients. I have two thoughts on > this. If my client is paying their own bills, then I will sit them down and > tell them straight up that they're wasting their money unless they make some > changes. Then if they still want to pay I keep taking their money and > muddle along as best I can. If an organization is paying for the support, > then I sit the client down and tell them they have to make the changes or > they are going to lose their funding. I have to document every hour as I'm > sure you do as well. When I get consistent no practice, I put it in the > report and the client loses their funding. It sucks to have to do that, but > quite honestly, I'm not making the kind of money that makes me want to deal > with a lot of frustration. As long as the effort is there I don't care how > long it takes to nail down a skill, but if the effort isn't there, then > there's some one waiting in line to take that person's spot, one fringe > benefit of being a good trainer. :) You can't save the world. > > > Hope this helps, > > > Erik Burggraaf > Introducing Ebony Consulting business card transcription service, > starting at $0.45 per card or $35 per hundred cards. > Ebony Consulting toll-free: 1-888-255-5194 > or on the web at http://www.erik-burggraaf.com > > > On 2012-06-03, at 11:47 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: > > > okay… I really could use you awls help. > > I myself am also a Mac voiceover trainer. I have a student who is > starting from ground one. to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe that > she even knew what voiceover was left alone how to use it until I told her > of its existence. she is doing great, however now we're to the point where I > am trying to help her learn the concept of interacting with certain items. > at this point, she is following behind miserably. I'm not saying that it's > her fault, it's probably the way that I am presenting it to her. I honestly > am not sure how else to make this easier. I have tried literally almost > every analogy underneath the sun. I tried explaining to her that voiceover > works very hierarchically. to her, that made entirely no sense. she somewhat > gets the concept when interacting with tables, but that's about as far as it > goes. even then, I can tell that her concept on the matter is very hazy. I > told her also to think of a bookshelf with three or four ring binders if she > wanted to get to the third binder, and then look at the 15th page within > that binder, she would first have to cross over the first and second binder > without even looking inside of them. then, once at the third binder, she > could then open it up, and then flip to the 15th page. I tried explaining to > her that interacting with items on voiceover is much the same. you have an > item where your voiceover cursor sits. you can either use voice over > navigation to pass right over the items, or you can climb a level down and > see what is underneath that item, by interacting with it. her exact words > when I said this work: "okay, now you really lost me! " I am pretty much out > of options. I don't know what else to tell her to try. I am determined to > help her. However, it seems like until we get past this concept, voiceover > is going to be very hard for her to use. whether she uses keyboard > commander, trackpad commander, or for that mind, even quick nap, she's going > to need to know the concept of what it means to interact. There's just no > other way around it. she does not have any learning disabilities, so it kind > of surprises me that all of my other students catch on to this pretty > quickly, yet she is not. I have asked her specifically to tell me what she > does not understand about the concept, however she is not able to articulate > what exactly it is that she does not understand about the concept. I think a > lot of it too, is the fact that she is barely even practicing. I give her > certain exercises to try throughout the day, and every time I do, next time > we get together, I asked her if she practiced, and she very truthfully tells > me know. I have had absolutely nothing to practice with, even though she is > fully aware that I gave her an assignment. I do not know how she ever is > going to learn if she keeps not practicing. I understand her getting > frustrated, but when I am genuinely trying to help her in any way form or > shape that I can, I would expect for her to at least have enough respect to > put forth a bit of effort. I just wonder how much of this is that she really > doesn't understand, versus how much of it is she really seriously is just > not trying. I do not want to be rude to her, however when I see that she is > making no progress at all, and that it's obvious by her admission, that she > is not practicing, what the hell more am I supposed to do? pardon the > language, but this is extremely frustrating. what do you all who are also > trainers do when you have students like this, is simply either one do not > get the concept of something, or simply click do not try and it's very > obvious that they are illustrating their lack of effort. this student has > had her state lend her a MacBook for three weeks. This means she only has > that amount of time to learn. We are extremely early in the three-week > process, however, I won't hurt to get the most out of this that she possibly > can. most of the things that we already have learned, she is also forgetting > almost constantly. No, I do not expect for her to learn all of these things > in one night, absolutely not! however, I know that she would be remembering > way more than she is if she were willing to sit down for at least 15 minutes > a day in practice. She does not seem to even be given me that much. what > would be the best thing to do? I do not want to be rude to her, but I also > need to let her know I'm very certain terms, but I cannot continue this > training with her, if she is not going to do her part. my responsibility is > to train and be patient, her responsibility is to practice. maybe I am very > strict of a teacher, but I know her potential. I know that she can get this. > She just has to be willing to try. don't get me wrong, I am seeing some > effort, just not very much. when we stepped a bit out of her comfort zone, > she refuses to continue. > > any advice on how to handle this from a trainer's perspective would > be most greatly appreciated. I'm completely at a loss as to what else to > do. > > thanks. > > by the way, sorry for all of the typos in this message. I am > dictating this using Siri on my iPhone. frankly in my opinion, she is doing > a horrible job tonight! > > Chris. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to > macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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