I have not received a confirmation that I consider authoritative at this point in time. There's a lot going on at the moment, and I'm still trying to find out who can speak to this authoritatively.
Apologies for the delay. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: Bressier Simon [mailto:bressie...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 6:16 AM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com> Cc: Benjamin BILLON <bbillon...@splio.fr>; mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail, green SNDS and junk folder placement Hey Michael, Sorry to bother :) did you have any news regarding these questions ? The point is really interesting for all of us here, and as a router to know if we have to be more strict with all our customers and "grey" senders, it could helps a lot to know if we have to multiply the current spam complaints count by xxx. Thank you very much in advance ! Simon 2017-10-30 18:49 GMT+01:00 Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>: I'm asking a few people to confirm my understanding and will get back to y'all. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7C7a673e9c99544880a7f108d521f3f30d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636452254000743161&sdata=TavtTynaDZNYGTYKvs28Xq61KeLHkCx0Uep73bx71SE%3D&reserved=0> ? From: Benjamin BILLON [mailto:bbillon...@splio.fr<mailto:bbillon...@splio.fr>] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 1:13 AM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail, green SNDS and junk folder placement Hi Michael, > Also, the JMRP doesn't generate 1:1 reports for each piece of traffic > reported as spam. > The ratio is much smaller than that, otherwise senders would use it for List > Washing, and that's frowned upon. Wow, wow wow wow. This is absolutely new to me. That would explain why we receive only 1/3 of the volume of ARF from Hotmail/Live than from Yahoo, while we send twice more to Hotmail/Live than Yahoo. However, that's not what https://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.live.com%2Fmail%2Fservices.aspx&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Ccb944cd6e3774b90488008d51ddba47d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447751559036363&sdata=3a0W7hWDKF7thrba%2FZgXXc%2FPROgtnmDeoDgfzPmVOGY%3D&reserved=0> says: "Returns the full message with headers of *any* email marked as "junk" or "phishing"" This is a HUGE change, if potential list washing is the issue, IMHO this is the wrong answer. This basically makes JMRP irrelevant for ESPs: we don't have reliable metrics, we can not satisfy people complaining as they'll keep getting the same message, probably in junk folder, which will probably weight negatively in the reputation ... I'm totally amazed by this information. That being said, even though the ratio is not 1:1, I _guess_ it's roughly the same for everybody. So we have clients that generate more than 9 complains a month and still enjoy a low BCL and inbox placement, while this one got an inexplicable BCL of 8. For the record, the ticket is SRX1401741292ID it highlights the discrepancy SNDS color / inbox placement (as Terry told me to do), and timidly mention the BCL without naming it (I reminded my folks to be more explicit in the tickets). The last reply we got was "after reviewing the information you provided and in compliance with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate mitigation for your deliverability issue", so I guess we washed off the Support Level 2. I wonder how many levels before the final boss! Cheers, -- Benjamin 2017-10-28 7:46 GMT+08:00 Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>: There are ways of dealing with BCL, but I'd suggest you point it out when opening the ticket. Also, the JMRP doesn't generate 1:1 reports for each piece of traffic reported as spam. The ratio is much smaller than that, otherwise senders would use it for List Washing, and that's frowned upon. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Ccb944cd6e3774b90488008d51ddba47d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447751559036363&sdata=axj8QBuiquHGROCaLZG7WLfc6JK2yj0NH8FwxZT%2Bb7I%3D&reserved=0> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org<mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>] On Behalf Of Brett Schenker Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 8:02 AM To: Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org<mailto:mai...@bago.org>> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail, green SNDS and junk folder placement My experience too is that BCL is the deciding factor over everything and have yet to figure out how to really move it towards the positive. On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org<mailto:mai...@bago.org>> wrote: On 24 October 2017 at 17:22, Benjamin BILLON via mailop <mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: Following Microsoft's folks recommendations (on this list and in ... a Canadian city a few weeks ago), we're going through tickets as usual, but we're for now circling around. I just wonder if other senders witnessed the same as described below: - SNDS says green - given the open rates for Hotmail (vs. other ISPs), seed lists tests and other metrics, much less than 90% of emails are delivered in inbox - Forefront antispam says SFV:NSPM, SCL:1 - Microsoft antispam says BCL:8. That means "The message is from a bulk sender that generates a high number of complaints" - 7 complaints for this sender (from 6 different recipients) this month, as provided by JMRP. 7. In 24 days. It doesn't happen for many clients fortunately, but it's quite ... disturbing. I see a similar pattern too. SNDS says "no issues" on your IP. Microsoft Support says "no issues with your IP", they don't ever mention "BCL" but "SmartScreen" and "Content", SNDS paint it Green, JMRP doesn't report FBL. Once you got an high BCL for an IP you are "lost". BCL moves very slowly (+1/-1 needs one month or even more). If the IP is not shared at least you know the BCL have been "built" for that very sender, but if your IP is shared then you have no clue why BCL is so high. 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