Waistline2 
Reply 

MP:  To state that: "Class in capitalism is a by-product  of an unequal and 
exploitative economic system; the division of society into  economic classes
is 
something that socialists wish to abolish" is obviously  wrong and 
immediately spotted by anyone except the novice to Marx method.  

Class within the bourgeois mode of production is the product of changes  in
the means of production that began development under the landed property
relations or its political expression as feudalism.

^^^^^
CB: So was feudalism the expression of landed _property_ or was it the
expression of feudal means of production and technology ? 

^^^^^^

 Classes at all times rise  and 
fall and develop - emerge, on the basis of changes in the material power of
production and how this material power is organized as a combination of
human  
labor + tools, instruments, machines + energy source. 

^^^^
CB: So why do you refer to landed _property_ as the basis of feudalism ?

^^^^^^^

Classes are formed  by the introduction of new productive equipment. That
is, by the reorganization  of the means of life. Almost always, the new
class and new classes are tied to  and work with the new means of
production.

^^^^^
CB; So when capitalism introduced electricity and oilbased productive
equipment to replace steam and steam engines from the first phase of the
industrial revolution, what were the new classes that replaced the
bourgeoisie and proletariat that Marx and Engels discuss in _The Manifesto_
?

^^^^^^


 Today's 
new class is shoved away from  the means of production and this is very
different in human society. Even if one  disagrees with the previous
sentence . . . no one within Marxism can disagree  with the fact that
classes are formed by the introduction of new productive  equipment and rise
and fall on the basis of 
changes in the means of production.  Such is the ABC of Marxism.  

^^^^^^
CB: This is the ABC of Waistline, whose sometimes a "Marxist" and sometimes
a Tofflerite.

For Marxists classes are formed by the introduction of new forms of
property, as when wage-labor/capital replaced feudallords/feudalserfs/etc.
The new classes were the bourgeois and proletarians.

The classes that Marx and Engels refer to in the first sentence of _The
Manifesto of the Communist Party_ are defined by their ownership or lack of
ownership of the means of production, and their rights of appropriation of
the products of the means of production.

^^^^^^

In other words capitalism does not create the modern working class or the
industrial proletariat. The revolution in  the means of production creates
the industrial proletariat as it evolves from  heavy manufacture within the
framework of political feudalism. Marx and Engels  chart the emergence of
the modern proletariat of their time in the Communist  Manifesto and in
Engels "Anti Durhing" and Socialism: Utopia and Scientific.  

^^^^^^

CB: What is it you think the classes struggle over in the class struggle
that Marx and Engels refer to ?

^^^^^^

Class can only be abolished in connection with the evolution and
destruction of the value relations.   
 
Melvin P

^^^^
CB: "Value" relations are property relations.



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