====================================================================== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. ======================================================================
1) SM : There is nothing arrogant, hostile, hysterical, shrieking in my posts. You have clearly misperceived matters here. Actually, I'm paying you the courtesy of taking what you are posting at face value. You refer to me, a BDS advocate, as a "Zionist scoundrel" because I dare to differ with you in my advocacy of two-state solution that is consistent with, say, Counterpunch's Uri Avnery. You keep repeating 'scoundrel' because name-calling is your only real weapon. And by claiming that Zionism is anti-Semitic, you are referring to me as an anti-Semite simply because I don't share your anti-Zionism. You started this pissing match! And you talk about me being uncomradely?? 2) SM: "I can point to many examples where Jews and Muslims had lived peacefully together for centuries in different parts of the world, specifically in Palestine, until the Zionist state was established." So Adam and Eve lived peacefully in the Garden of Eden until that snake called Herzl ruined everything? I cited examples of pre-1948 Palestinian and other Arab oppression of Jews, and you ignored it in your response. (By the way, I can point to many examples of Jews and Christians living 'peacefully' together for centuries in Europe....but we know how that turned out.) Moses Hess' "Rome and Jerusalem" was motivated by anti-Semitic violence in the Arab world. 3) SM: "Are Judith and Omar "democratic Zionists" as well?" Both are anti-Zionist, but not vicious and flame-throwing like you. 4) SM: "Do not treat me like an armed uniformed Zionist thug treats a defenceless Palestinian mother carrying her child in arms." This sounds like something out of the anti-abortion playbook, where a bloodied, aborted fetus is in display to intimidate women checking into a health clinic. More to the point, I'll treat you the way you deserve to be treated, due to what I have documented in Point #1 above. 5) SM: "This is obvious by your use of the term "Marxist Zionist" which is clearly absurd." The term was quite familiar to political activists in the early 20th century, especially in Eastern Europe. Your disapproval means bubkes when it comes to evaluating its authenticity. The Left Poalei Zion formed the Borochov Brigade which fought in the Red Army against the forces of Czarist Russia, and Borochov's followers Mordechai Anielewicz and Abba Kovner led the ghetto resistance in Warsaw and Vilna, respectively. 6) SM: "Now you are just being silly and puerile Sheldon. However, I do recall so many massacres and so much mass destruction that I have lost count. Do you remember Sabra and Shatila? etc, etc, etc..." No, you are avoiding the point I was making about the kibbutz movement. Sabra and Shatila was committed by Christian Falangists with the assistance of Ariel Sharon - not the kibbutz movement. "So many massacres" and "so much mass destruction"? Israel has a lot of catching up to do to equal the levels reached by your favorite comparison point for all things Jewish - Nazi Germany. 7) SM: "Does that mean that the whole socialist project is wrecked on the grounds of "trust issues"? Can you not perceive the implications of this superficial, idiotic assertion?" There is nothing idiotic about remembering history, and everything moronic about forgetting it. Two thousand years of Diaspora-based oppression have given my people ample grounds to be leery of placing oneself at the mercy of a Gentile majority with a history of anti-Semitic violence prior to 1948. 8) SM: "Sheldon, as a self-confessed Zionist, what on earth are you doing on a Marx mailing list supporting a reactionary and oppressive state power?" Your reading comprehension skills are truly mind-blowing. How am I supporting such a power if I support the BDS movement? 9) SM: "Your "moral compass" is pointing towards the maintenance of the oppression of a whole people in a phony two-state solution which is really only a one-state solution for the Zionist enclave. I smoked you out on that one....eventually" When did you smoke me out? Because you say so, therefore it is disproven? 10) SM: "A unitary democratic secular state is the only feasible, provisional solution" Yup, that's really working well for black South Africans... On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:27 PM, shaun may <mn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > SM : There is nothing arrogant, hostile, hysterical, shrieking in my > posts. You have clearly misperceived matters here. Calm down Sheldon. Do > not treat me like an armed uniformed Zionist thug treats a defenceless > Palestinian mother carrying her child in arms. The only hostility in this > exchange is your virtual threats which arise out of your own vulnerability > on these questions which you appear to be resourceless to answer. You have > my pity in that regard. I am here to help. This is obvious by your use of > the term "Marxist Zionist" which is clearly absurd. And I state that in all > sincerity. No offence intended. In fact, as absurd as "Democratic Zionist" > or "whitewashing chimney sweep". Sheldon, you cannot be a chimney sweep and > a whitewasher at the same time. They are mutually incompatible activities. > Start thinking like a Marxist and not like an apologist for Zionist > oppression. > > > You have misread my posts. Your over-agitated state of mind is interfering > with your cognitive capacities and perceptions. I said Trotsky and Meszaros > critiqued the conception of State Capitalism. James, Cliff and Dunayevskaya > elaborated "state capitalist" conceptions. T's and M's critiques apply and > remain valid in this regard. I think you may benefit from familiarising > yourself with them. Can I humbly and sincerely suggest that you do this? > > > SHELDON : "You obviously believe all the myths created by Zionism that > people left voluntarily with handshakes for Begin, Shamir, Sharon, the > Irgun and Stern Gang." Actually, I don't. But feel free to put words in my > mouth and have a dialogue of one, while I work together with Omar Barghouti > and Judith Butler to make the Middle East a more just and peaceful region" > > > SM : Are Judith and Omar "democratic Zionists" as well? I will personally > shake your hand (and endeavour to avoid your ultra-macho fist) if you > succeed in making the Middle East a "more just and peaceful region" with > your "two-state solution". But I will not hold my breath in hope for this. > > SHELDON : Who knew that those who lived the most successful socialist > experiment in history were no better than Nazis who practiced lebensraum? > (hmmm...where were the gas chambers set up at Kibbutz Revivim to burn the > corpses of Palestinians?) Doesn't speak well for socialism or its > advocates, now does it? Which, in turn, suggests that you're propping up a > false flag operation. > > > SM : Now you are just being silly and puerile Sheldon. However, I do > recall so many massacres and so much mass destruction that I have lost > count. Do you remember Sabra and Shatila? etc, etc, etc... > > SHELDON : Anti-Semitism in the Arab world existed long before 1948. Jews > in the Arab world for centuries were derogated as 'dhimmis'. Marx noted in > his April 15, 1854 article in the New York Herald tribune about how the > Jews of Jerusalem suffered the worst of anyone there. And then there were > pre-1948 anti-Jewish massacres, such as Hebron in 1929. The Mufti's > passionate alliance with Hitler is well-known, as is the 1941 Farhud > massacre in Iraq. The collective awareness of these and other episodes > caused Trotskyist writer Nathan Weinstock to abandon his anti-Zionism. And > that's why 'one democratic secular state' as you propose won't work - too > many trust issues. > > > SM : Sheldon, has the existence of the Zionist state increased or lessened > anti-semitism in the region? You are playing the same old reprehensible > card of inferring that Zionism is the inevitable outgrowth of the > experiences of Jewish culture in various parts of the world. It is, once > again, a trick of the Zionist scoundrel. I can point to many examples where > Jews and Muslims had lived peacefully together for centuries in different > parts of the world, specifically in Palestine, until the Zionist state was > established. I have to state that your approach to the issue of "trust" > which you raise here is completely reactionary, even fascistic and divisive > of the interests of my class, the proletariat. Does that mean that the > whole socialist project is wrecked on the grounds of "trust issues"? Can > you not perceive the implications of this superficial, idiotic assertion? I > thought you said that you were not a "State Zionist" and yet this posting > contains it in heaps. We might as well resign if that is our approach to > the struggle for emanicipation. Trust is built in struggle against a common > enemy and does not droppeth from the sky like kind mercy. You disappoint me > Sheldon, in your ahistorical articulation of "trust issues". > Sheldon, as a self-confessed Zionist, what on earth are you doing on a > Marx mailing list supporting a reactionary and oppressive state power? > Would you mind if the English Nationalists came on as well? The EDL and > BNP? What sort of response would a "Marxist English Nationalist" receive on > this list? He would be received with a justifiable howl of laughter, > derision and then told, deservedly, to fuck off (unsubbed) In MY opinion > Sheldon, you do not belong on a Marx mailing list just as I would be like a > fish out of water on The Friends of Israel list. There may be Palestinians > on this list who - or their families - have suffered at the hands of the > Zionist occupation. > > > SHELDON : "I think I would have to take my compass with me for fear of > ending up in the Negev." Hold on to it tight - since you've lost your moral > compass, it's the only one you've got left. > > > SM : Now Sheldon, this is unwarranted. And very uncomradely. Your "moral > compass" is pointing towards the maintenance of the oppression of a whole > people in a phony two-state solution which is really only a one-state > solution for the Zionist enclave. I smoked you out on that > one....eventually. My "moral compass" is pointing in the opposite > direction. One cannot be a Zionist and a Marxist at the same time. Zionism > itself is a state-form and ideological-form of rule of capital. If you > advocate Zionism then you advocate oppression of a whole people. And the > oppression of the proletariat itself in the Zionist entity. Its > perspectives are not merely nationalistic but also class-antagonistic. They > represent the interests of capital. > > I did not think that I would come across such a strange beast on a Marx > mailing list : a "Marxist Zionist"?!?! But, experience is the greatest > teacher...... > > The two-state solution is the last refuge of the Zionist scoundrel. A > unitary democratic secular state is the only feasible, provisional > solution. Everything else serves to entrench Zionist oppression even more > deeply. > > > http://shaunpmay.wordpress.com > > http://spmay.wordpress.com > > Take it easy (favourite motto of Engels) > > Doubt everything (favourite motto of Marx) > > Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an > institution? > Groucho Marx > > 'Sir, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your coffee.' Nancy > Astor. > 'Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it.' Winston Churchill. > > Blenheim Palace, 1912 > > > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
