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Wow, I thought Jeff was the only one who was simply talking out of his ass. Did anyone else notice how not a shred of Luko's commentary has anything to do with CNI? There isn't any connection between the ideas (rightfully) Luko criticizes and the actual organization, with the possible exception of its name. Again, I remember another poster being quite livid when I accidentally and mistakenly linked him to fascism based on his post about Ukraine because his post happened happened to share a name with a fascist group, even though there was no actual connection. Yet here Jeff and Luko manage to give us lengthy rants about the dangers of American nationalism without any actual connection between their comments -- ranging from Puerto Rico to GTMO to manifest destiny -- to the group they are criticizing. Based solely on personal experience, I actually do know how some of the people involved in that group (particularly Hassan Fouda who is a CA-based Palestine solidarity activist and Edward Peck who was aboard the Gaza Flotilla) feel about GTMO, though I've never asked them how they feel about Puerto Rico because I wasn't interested in interrogating them. Given that Ed Peck is the guy who told a group of Bard students that America is responsible for terrorism and that the US policy toward Iraq is comparable to genocide, it shouldn't be particularly surprising that he is against GTMO. Hassan Fouda is the former head of the US chapter of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, so I'll let you take a guess. There's no doubt that CNI focuses mostly on the Middle East, and at that mostly on Israel. But so what? It's a single-issue advocacy group like any other, and the people involved in it are militant anti-war activists. I think if you really want to make some kind of analogy between CNI and other groups it would be comparable to the Anti-Imperialist League. This was a "League" that was a broad-based anti-imperialist coalition including former heads of state (including apparently 2 presidents), senators, as well as liberal/progressive types, etc, united by the principle of opposing imperialism on various moral and ethical grounds. There are obvious differences as well -- CNI is very small and focuses on one of the most blatant examples of imperialism, namely US support for Israel, but the organizational makeup is similar. - Amith On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lüko Willms <marxm...@lws-media.de> wrote: > on Freitag, 31. Juli 2015 at 13:50, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > > about the "Council for the National Interest": > > > > > > > > *> If Jeff's politics and witch-hunting are considered leftism then he can > > have leftism. I'll take Iyad Burnat and Ed Peck instead, they appear to > be > making actual sacrifices to liberate oppressed people while others are > more > interested in stamping Palestine with their political platforms and > then > demanding purity. *Not at all. Those people of the "Council for > the National Interest" just want to remove an obstacle to the absolute > domination of the USA over all peoples of this planet. > > They are not acting differently than the British imperialists when these > implemented the policies of their 1939 "White Paper", and restricted the > Zionist immigration, which aimed at keeping the Arabs under the British > boots, to avoid that they might look for support against oppressor from the > enemy of their enemy, just as the Arabs had been fooled by the French, > British and Italian colonial powers in World War 1. French troops evicted > 'Abdallah by military force after he proclaimed himself the King of the > Arabs in Damascus. > > British colonial troops also tried to contain the oppressive moves of de > Gaulle's "Free French" to reassert French colonial rule over Lebanon and > Syria, which also seen by London as arousing the whole of Arabia against > their (current European) oppressors. > > The "Council for the (US-American) National Interest" is also in the same > line of de Gaulle who went from his triumphant "Je vous ai compris" [I have > understood you] speech before a mass of French settlers in Algiers to the > peace treaty of Evian which assured Algeria of its independence. > > Finally the rebuff which Ian Smith received from London when he declared > independence for a "White" ruled Rhodesia. > > The British colonialists had more to lose than just Palestine, they had to > care for their world wide Briish Empire. > > Same today. There are rifts in the US ruling class or their political > representatives, of which one faction finds a political expression in this > CNI: it would be better for the total domination over the planet if the US > would do away with the friction caused by the colonial settler state of > Israel. They see the USofA as the "only indispensable nation" of humanity; > all other nations are dispensable in the eyes of the US empire. The > Sandinista hymn rightly calls the US ruling class the "enemigo de la > humanidad", the enemy of mankind. > > on Freitag, 31. Juli 2015 at 01:36, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > > >> Elsewhere, presumably, the US is pursuing its own interests and that is > >> as it should be. > > > > Where does it say that? Honestly, I'm sick of the Nancy Drew > > let's-find-Nazis bullshit whenever there are peace activists that aren't > > waving around their left credentials. CNI is an organization of mostly > > diplomats and former governmental personnel like Abourezk and Ed Peck, of > > course they'd talk about "American interests". So what? > > So you see the desire to rule over foreign people as the same as the > desire of same people to get rid of foreign domination? > > > > > > > > *> The "national interest" rhetoric is also quite normal. How is it > different > from emphasizing that we need "money for jobs and education > (i.e. > domestically), not for war and occupation," or saying "Bring our > Troops > home," or any of the other nationalist rhetoric that dominates > peace > activism in any given country? * Like "nationalist rethoric" of > the Vietnamese and the US-American ruling class during the US war against > Vietnam -- all the same? > > The nationalist rethoric of "Algerie française" and the "nationist > rethoric" of "freedom and independence for Algeria" -- all the same? > > Can't you see the contradiction of oppressor and oppressed? > > > > *> I think CNI is a great organization and this is much ado about nothing. > * Well, if you think that the US ruling class is right in assuming a > "manifest destiny" to rule over all of humanity, to maintain a world wide > network of military bases, aircraft carrier fleets in all oceans, and of > torture centers and assasination squads threatening to strike in each and > every country, you are on the other side of the barricade. > > on Freitag, 31. Juli 2015 at 13:50, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > > > > > > *> It's interesting how Jeff's callous dismissals of a bunch of diplomats > and > Congresspeople who burned their old bridges and became outspoken > critics of > imperialism * that is a grave error. > > Do these people advocate independence for Puerto Rico? To they call for > the USA to give the illegely occupied piece of land at the exit of > Guantanamo Bay, where they have built a concentration camp and torture > center, back Cuba to the Cuban people? > > Do they call for withdrawing all US military behind the US borders? > > The have not "burned bridges", but do propose only a variant of the US > imperialist rule over the world. It's a mere tactical difference. > > > > > *> so easily transfer to being dismissive of Palestinian > grassroots > activists when it is convenient for him. * It is a grave error for Arab > freedom fighters, in Palestine or other parts of the Arab nation, to expect > deliverance from the US-American ruling class. If they do, they commit the > same error as their forefathers who expected deliverance from the European > colonialists in their fight against the Ottoman empire. > > And please note that there is not only a difference, but a contradiction > between the US ruling class and the oppressed classes of the same country, > the working class and the exploited farmers. > > The interest of the nation are the interests of the ruling class or of the > class which strives to take over the rule, as Leon Trotsky noted in one of > his major articles on the fight against fascism in Germany. > > The US working class has its own interest to disassociate itself from > their imperialist rulers, and they wont be able to liberate themselves if > they don't. > > > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > > _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
