Hi Marv: So you are waiting to see if convinced Leninists of 'either tendency" will admit there was a "historically premature mistake".
But - for my part I (at least I think that I did) have already had conversation with you on this list - about 1-2 months ago, where I raised that this was a possible alternative explanation for the faltering of the workers movement. I suggest4d that there was still objectively life in the old beast (ie capital). I also had explicitly discussed that until the failure in Germany, and then the Poland invasion - that amongst the Bolsheviks, the penny was starting to drop that there may not be a Western revolution. To be honest I cannot find the email reference, but I really do not think I have dementia... at least not yet! [PS A tip for those of potentially dementiable age - a Japanese study is very convincing about some exercises to move your toes apart and then clench them together. I do it with semi-religious fervour. I may be grasping at straws, it was an RCT!]. What then - when the penny dropped? Should the Bolsheviks have downed tools and picked up the vodka bottle? The question for me - is how does that appreciation - retrospectively - of a 'historically premature' rising - change what Marxists *should have done* in a) 1917; and then b) Between say, 1921-1935; and then finally c) in 1940. So - What would you have done for example Marv? I think the answer for (b) would have been that you would not want to build 'socialism in one country' because that was contrary to "common sense and Marxism and the best Marxist around says that it was nonsense". Maybe I am putting words in your mouth. But I am entirely unsure I at all know what your answer for (a) would be. Are you saying - that as the guns of the First World war were still sounding and the serfs and peasants and soldiers were calling for an end to the regime, that the Bolsheviks should *not* have moved to seize power? And I have seen very mixed signals indeed about (c) from Michael M who in his latest message says something like thank goodness the Soviets took on Hitler; and yet earlier at several junctures - he castigates the Soviets for moving what they saw as becoming the Front towards the West by indeed, partitioning Poland. So Michael - what would you do - let us use the present time to frame the feeling - As the British led mission by one "Admiral Reginald Plunkett-Ernie-Erle-Drax" takes the slow boat to "negotiate" an Allied Front against Hitler? http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/WBBJVSNaziPact.htm ( http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/WBBJVSNaziPact.htm ) There is a very strong tendency to do historical after the day-is-done quarter-backing. I mean why do we stop with 1917? In for a penny in for a pound.... I really, really think that you should ask - Should we wise 2024 Marxists have counselled the Third Estate not to lose their heads (hah) and start the French Revolution? History's events do have lessons for us for sure. And we may indeed repeat the historical cycle (how many years did it take for capitalism to overcome feudal patterns of society?) until "we" (some peoples somewhere) get it right. Of course I think you and all here will agree, and I do too - that all Marxists must do a fair amount of historical analysis. But to deny making decisions at the sharp end of history, even when they may be shown to have been at times weakened by subsequent events - is not sensible in my view. I think making easy retrospective judgements, "Ah well - they should have waited 150 years" - is clearly sophistry. Maybe that is not what you are suggesting, but I have seen this often and on this list. So what would you have done? And what would Michael have done? Cheers H -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#29555): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/29555 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105034294/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
