> > I'm sort of betwix and between Sartesian and Mark B on this. > > I don't hold the current institution of the Catholic Church responsible > for antisemitism anymore than I hold the Democrats being the Slaveocracy > and Tammny Hall modern day incarnations of evil. I think this is a big > mistake, historically. It IS important to talk about it and point it out > but its silly if one things this is a persuasive argument. It simply fails > to point us in how to deal with these two reactionary institutions. To > think Vatican II (Pope John's project) was irrelevant to the class > struggle you'd be factually incorrect. It effected everything in a way, > most notably in Latin America. > > I think both Sartesian and Mark B are both correct on the *facts*. It's > the importance, or weight, we have to give to our analysis of the Roman > Catholic Church, arguably the most important cultural and political > institution in world history. > > No two institutions are alike. That is especially true regarding the > Catholic Church and every other Christian denomination. Sartestian did > quote this I think from Mark B's contribution: > > >
> > Or are you repeating the trope about child abuse in the Catholic Church? > The truth is that practically every US institution caring for children has > been shown to have a child-molestation problem, sooner or later. Except > for the Girl Scouts." takes the fucking cake, and the use of the obscenity > is perfectly justified by the obscenity of Mark's rationalization; of > abuse--and of course his natiional blindspot in that the church worldwide > participated in this abuse. > > Mark, what "trope"? You mean facts? There is a huge GIGANTIC difference between the Catholic scandal of "celibate" priestly child molesters and thos of "every US institution" that also had a scandal. The Church, the richest and best organized denomination did spend decades using their highly centralized state-like apparatus to undermine bringing justice for the victims and hiding the perpetrators using these state-like agencies to transfer priests from one country to the next. This includes up to the current Pope who admittedly announced this publicly and brought more light to these crimes. No other organization, theist or secular, has done anything in scale even approaching the grotesque actions of the Church. No mainline Protestant church did and while this did in fact occur among some of the Southern Baptists, it was quite easily exposed. However, to say as Sartesian did that the current Church is somehow responsible for slavery or all the other quite evil actions of the Church in bygone days is silly. They have, via drips and drabs, owned up to this. I think that is a good thing and hope it continues. Interestingly few actual practicing Catholics actually defend the Church's actions currently or in the historical past. It is simply not same church that collaborated with the Nazis (while others in the priestom were part of or supported the resistance). I deal with the defenders of the Church in various ways, including theologically, even though they are no longer fundementalists in their understanding of the Bible, except to always point out that they spawned the Reformation by corruption and the little fact that not a thing in the Catholic Church is actually in the Bible (their, larger Bible, which includes the books ditched by Luther in his little editing job), like a pope, like priests, like special celibacy for priests, tithes, indulgences, etc etc. Secondly, deal with them as a political institution as they are one, and point out the reactionary nature of their stances on things like abortion, women's rights, LGBT rights, contraception, and separation of Church and State. I can say this, some of the most effective class struggle fighters I ever knew were often were devout Catholics, Pentecostals, and Baptists. One has to love contradictions on the barricades. People I'd want covering MY back if push comes to shoving with the capitalist State. David > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#35198): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/35198 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/111125467/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
