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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frakes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: MD: CD quality compared to MD quality
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:24:16 -0400, las <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >I am a little confused and disappointed by some of the things that I
> >have read recently here on the list.
> >
> >I have always felt that the quality of an MD copied from a CD
> >(digitally) is almost indistinguishable on equipment manufactured
> >within the last year or 2.
> >
> >Now I am finding multiple comments from long time list members
> >stating that there is on obvious difference in the quality between
> >the original CD and the MD copy.
> [snip]
> >I am interested in all opinions regarding lower end decks and
> >portables. Also, the difference that people have noticed between CD
> >and it's MD copy.
>
> OK, Larry, I'm game <grin>
>
> It all depends on your equipment. For the majority of people who use
> MiniDiscs, there is no audible difference. Most equipment that you buy at
> Circuit City or Best Buy just doesn't produce the differences. This is
> not intended to be "elitest" nor am I saying that you can't get good,
> satisfying sound from Circuit City or Best Buy. Millions of people are
> ecstatically happy with their Circuit City stereos, and I have absolutely
> no problem with that. I am simply stating an objective fact: you can only
> produce a certain level of audio quality within the constraints of
> mass-market audio components. And MD is good enough that within that
> market, it's difficult to tell the difference. However, on higher-end
> systems (or even with very good headphones) the difference in sound
> quality between CD and MD is often immediately audible.
> Let's put this discussion in perspective. My friends and I often debate
> whether or not MP3 is "CD-quality." They'll argue for hours that it is --
> then I go to their place and see that they're listening to CDs and MP3s
> on their computer with $30 Labtec speakers. Of course they sound the
> same! <grin> There exists a level of "system quality" below which they
> sound the same, and above which there is an audible difference in
> quality. Our discussion here is simply raising everything up to a higher
> level: even on a decent system, CD and MD may sound the same. However,
> there is still a threshold of system quality above which you will be able
> to hear the difference.
Have to give my 2 cents worth (again) on this one.....
A lot of truth here but you might want to consider component quality and not
just system quality. There are cd players and there are HDCD players of
considerable quality difference. I have yet to see any of the so called
really high end gear companies produce MD decks. I would venture to say
that if you had a Sony ES CD deck and A Sony ES MD deck you should not be
able to so readily hear a difference. From the sounds of your system I
would bet your CD deck is either a pro model or very high end HDCD. Perhaps
if you had a pro model or super high end MD deck (if indeed they are
available) the comparison would be more fair. After all a Technics is not
going to sound like a Harman Kardon or Onkyo, much less something better
like a NAD! So, it is my firm opinion that your cd deck MUST be far
superior to your MD deck if you can so easily tell a difference.
Except, I say again; when you turn the volume up to a normal rock and roll
level its going to take Superman to hear any difference at all; not just
between formats but between any decent gear as well (providing the same
quality speakers are being used, speakers being the most crucial of all
audio components).. Like I said before, you would need more bucks than you
spent on your gear for test equipment good enough to measure the differences
being discussed here.
Also, until about 3 months ago I would have agreed with you totally on MP3.
Since audio is my profession I took another look and have found there are
now extremely high quality MP3s on the net. When converted to waves and
burned to CD they are about as good as anything, which is why there is now
such a fuss about themn I guess. I would not give 2 cents for an MP3
player, however..
Les
www.musicmixers.com
>
> Our system at home consists of NAD separates and NHT and PSB speakers.
> I'm not even close to being wealthy, but audio quality is very important
> to me. I'm willing to spend a lot of time shopping so that I can get the
> best possible sound for my money. I'll make due with fewer features if it
> means better sound. So I spend quite a bit of time shopping for my system
> (and saving for it!), listening in audio shops, reading reviews,
> newsgroups, etc. In my opinion, I have the best system I could get for
> the money I spent (interestingly enough, my system actually cost less
> than some of the "super-systems" I see at Good Guys or Circuit City, but
> that's another discussion <g>). On *this* system, there is an audible
> difference between MDs and CDs.
>
> >I don't have the time to properly try and conduct A/B tests and since
> >they would not be blind, let alone double blind, psychoacoustics
> >becomes a problem.
>
> I know you're a stickler for proper test methodology, Larry; as a
> researcher, I am, too. But here's an example that's better than most
> non-scientific comparisons. My girlfriend and I make MD copies of CDs
> that we listen to frequently so that we can take them with us. Our home
> system has both CD and MD. If we're at home and she wants to listen to an
> album we've recorded to MD, sometimes she uses the CD, sometimes she uses
> the MD. If I walk into the room, I can tell which one she is playing
> without knowing which one she inserted, without looking at the stereo,
> etc. In other words, I can tell by the way it sounds. It doesn't get much
> more "blind" than that. The only time I'm not sure is if I have never
> heard the original CD (which makes sense -- you need to have heard the
> original to tell if the copy is inferior). However, even then there are
> times when the music just "doesn't sound right" -- meaning the sound
> isn't as good as I would expect. There have been a number of times that
> I've pegged an MD even though I'd never heard the original CD. MD has a
> certain sound that I can often pick out on our home system.
>
> All that said, I think we're making a big deal out of nothing here. The
> fact is that MD is a very good compressed copy of an original. It's good
> enough that most people won't be able to hear the difference. But as long
> as there *is* a difference, some people, because of better playback
> systems, better ears, whatever, will objectively be able to discern that
> difference. This phenomenon is not constrained to audio. People who test
> drive cars for a living can detect the sublest differences in the way two
> cars handle, while I can't feel much difference between a Civic and a
> Jeep <g>. I marvel at how much better the picture is when playing a DVD
> vs. an older VHS tape, but I have friends who claim they look exactly the
> same. In every industry there are products for people who can't tell the
> difference, or can't afford to tell the difference, and products for
> those who can. Rat was right-on in his earlier message: in the end, who
> cares? MD is very high-quality, portable, recordable audio. In my
> opinion, it's simply the best solution for those purposes, and if I can
> hear the difference on my home system, or with my Grado headphones, so
> what. Most of the time when I'm listening to my MD portable, other
> factors such as external noise are going to negate any sonic differences,
> so I'm completely satisfied.
>
> [As a side note, while external noise often negates the differences in
> sound between CD and MD, in my experience it *doesn't* negate the
> differences between CD and MP3. Even on the commuter trains here in S.F.
> I am bothered by the poor sound quality of MP3s. For a while I tried to
> save commuting bulk by listening to MP3s off of my laptop via headphones,
> but I gave up and now I bring my MD, too.]
>
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