"...If forces me to explain myself more clearly and or modify my position." - Michael
Michael, invitation accepted! :-) On Aug 31, 8:42 pm, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Orn, > > I enjoy dialectics. I'm just short of time at the moment. I like to > examine beliefs that people think are well formed but on closer > examination seem to be nothing more than slogans. I like it when > people challenge my assertions. If forces me to explain myself more > clearly and or modify my position. > > On Aug 31, 6:27 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Michael, well said! > > > And, I do like to examine thoughts, beliefs, notions that seem to be > > contradictory, not clear or well founded etc. I find it an interesting > > exercise. If it appears to be noxious or distasteful to you, I have no > > need to do it. > > > On Aug 31, 4:06 pm, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Orn, > > > > You seem to like to argue even more than I do. If I wasn't pressed for > > > time I'd give you a good run for your money (what money? Oh that's an > > > idiom!) Suffice it to say that I believe, at least in my case, voting > > > the lesser of evils can be voting my conscience. In your case only you > > > would know for sure. > > > > On Aug 31, 2:18 am, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Old Orn:> This, of course is a meme, mostly promulgated by the two > > > > major parties > > > > > > to maintain control. IF people in fact voted their conscience and > > > > > ignored what others say about 'throwing your vote away', the 'major' > > > > > parties would HAVE to be much more responsive to the citizenry. > > > > > Michael: > > > > “Orn, > > > > You are making a hypothetical. If elephants had big enough wings and > > > > strong enough muscles to move them they could fly. As far as I am > > > > concerened Bush stole Florida in 2000. Without Nader it would not > > > > have > > > > been close enough for him to steal. I have not voted in most > > > > presidential elections because I did not find a candidate. in any > > > > party, who I wanted to be president over.There is currently no race > > > > in > > > > Tennessee. I may not vote for President, but will probably vote for > > > > other offices that are up for grabs, including congress. However, I > > > > hope Obama wins, believeing he is the lesser evil by a factor of 100 > > > > or more. If the race becomes close in Tennessee I will vote for him. > > > > That is my conscience.” - Michael > > > > > Yes Michael, I did present a hypothetical…and it was with the > > > > intention of education rather than to reduce linguistics to the > > > > absurd. > > > > > To give a specific example, just prior to the last election I asked > > > > many acquaintances one question, giving them a different hypothetical. > > > > I said: “IF you knew that today all three candidates, Bush, Kerry and > > > > Nader were at 33 1/3 % in the polls, who would you vote for?” > > > > In EVERY CASE with but one exception they said Nader! (The one > > > > exception was a Democratic operative who had come to my door to > > > > convince me to vote for Kerry.) > > > > Yes, I know this is anicdotal and perhaps it is instructive too. > > > > > Your belief about Bush and Florida, as much as I would like to agree > > > > with the gross oversimplification, is but another meme and one voiced > > > > by the opposition. > > > > Of course, your own hypothetical about Nader is yet another meme and a > > > > naïve one at that. It ignores many facts of the situation thus is not > > > > only not true, it misses the point entirely. > > > > IF your conscience, an unfounded notion for one whom I would guess > > > > does not embrace the absolute, resulting in no clear and coherent > > > > ethos, says to not vote, so be it. Your justification of not finding > > > > someone who you would like to be president over (sic.) [me?] > > > > completely ignores the fact that you can write-in anyone, real or > > > > imagined that you want to. At lest this is the case in most states > > > > including Tennessee. One salient example was the “write-in election of > > > > Charlotte Burks to the Tennessee State Senate seat of her late > > > > husband, Tommy Burks, murdered by his only opponent on the ballot.” A > > > > point of law is: “Tennessee – 25 signatures is all that is required as > > > > of 2006 to be put on the ballot for any elected office. A candidate > > > > for President of the United States must put forward a full slate of > > > > candidates who have agreed to serve as electors (11, at least until > > > > the 2010 census)…” > > > > > Further, I can only guess that you say that “There is currently no > > > > race in Tennessee.” , because of polling data? IF so, talk about a > > > > hypothetical!….and what could easily be called a self fulfilling > > > > prophesy! Simple question: Today, IF you were asked by a pollster, > > > > would you say you will vote for Obama? I would guess, based on what > > > > you have said here is that your answer would have to be ‘No’. And, > > > > since there is no place for a clarification such as you WILL vote for > > > > him IF the polls say he has a chance…well, this is almost like Zeno’s > > > > paradox. > > > > > On Aug 30, 10:16 pm, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 30, 6:55 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I will vote my conscience, and, as Nader says: "The lesser of two > > > > > evils is still an evil." > > > > > On Aug 30, 6:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > "... One can exercise their conscience by voting for the lesser > > > > > > evil." - michael > > > > > > > This, of course is a meme, mostly promulgated by the two major > > > > > > parties > > > > > > to maintain control. IF people in fact voted their conscience and > > > > > > ignored what others say about 'throwing your vote away', the 'major' > > > > > > parties would HAVE to be much more responsive to the citizenry. > > > > > > Orn, > > > > > > You are making a hypothetical. If elephants had big enough wings and > > > > > strong enough muscles to move them they could fly. As far as I am > > > > > concerened Bush stole Florida in 2000. Without Nader it would not have > > > > > been close enough for him to steal. I have not voted in most > > > > > presidential elections because I did not find a candidate. in any > > > > > party, who I wanted to be president over.There is currently no race in > > > > > Tennessee. I may not vote for President, but will probably vote for > > > > > other offices that are up for grabs, including congress. However, I > > > > > hope Obama wins, believeing he is the lesser evil by a factor of 100 > > > > > or more. If the race becomes close in Tennessee I will vote for him. > > > > > That is my conscience. > > > > > > On Aug 30, 6:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > "... One can exercise their conscience by voting for the lesser > > > > > > evil." - michael > > > > > > > This, of course is a meme, mostly promulgated by the two major > > > > > > parties > > > > > > to maintain control. IF people in fact voted their conscience and > > > > > > ignored what others say about 'throwing your vote away', the 'major' > > > > > > parties would HAVE to be much more responsive to the citizenry. > > > > > > > On Aug 30, 1:06 pm, Isparklaria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Clog, > > > > > > > > I wouldn't worry too much about who you vote for for president. > > > > > > > McCaine has a huge lead in Tennessee. However, if you goal is to > > > > > > > attain equal rights for Atheists, you might consider helping > > > > > > > Obama any > > > > > > > way that you can. The dems have many problems, but they are by > > > > > > > far the > > > > > > > lesser of two evils. One can exercise their conscience by voting > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > the lesser evil. > > > > > > > > On Aug 30, 2:48 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - much as I support the intent, I cannot bring myself > > > > > > > > to send > > > > > > > > money to the Democrats after the disgraceful Obama/McCain church > > > > > > > > interview. I'll keep my money and decide later whether to vote > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > conscience as I should, or vote for the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > On Aug 30, 2:44 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is a link/article found on the Friendly Atheist site by > > > > > > > > > Hemant > > > > > > > > > Mehta. > > > > > > > > > > Elizabeth Dole Attacks Senate Opponent for Meeting with > > > > > > > > > Atheists > > > > > > > > > Posted by Hemant Mehta in General on 08 26th, 2008 | > > > > > > > > > > North Carolina Senator Elizabeth Dole and her communications > > > > > > > > > staff put > > > > > > > > > out a press release today criticizing her Democratic > > > > > > > > > challenger Kay > > > > > > > > > Hagan. > > > > > > > > > > What did Hagan do to deserve the criticism? > > > > > > > > > > She plans to attend a fundraiser hosted by atheists. > > > > > > > > > > On September 15th, Kay Hagan is heading to Boston, > > > > > > > > > Massachusetts to > > > > > > > > > attend a fundraiser for her Senate campaign. What may surprise > > > > > > > > > mainstream North Carolinians is that the fundraiser will be > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > home of leading anti religion activists Wendy Kaminer and her > > > > > > > > > lawyer > > > > > > > > > husband Woody Kaplan — who is an advisor to the “Godless > > > > > > > > > Americans > > > > > > > > > Political Action Committee.” > > > > > > > > > > … > > > > > > > > > > Kaminer is also an advisory board member (Woody is the > > > > > > > > > chairman) of > > > > > > > > > The Secular Coalition for America which is “the national > > > > > > > > > lobby for > > > > > > > > > atheists, humanists, freethinkers and other nontheistic > > > > > > > > > Americans with > > > > > > > > > the unique mission of protecting their civil rights.” (Secular > > > > > > > > > Coalition For America, Press Release, 1/16/08) > > > > > > > > > > Kaminer’s husband, Woody Kaplan, is also an advisor to the > > > > > > > > > Godless > > > > > > > > > Americans Political Action Committee which sees itself as a > > > > > > > > > counter- > > > > > > > > > force to religious groups in public policy debates. > > > > > > > > > > So, Republicans hate civil rights? > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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