“…What effect does dramatically higher labor cost have on our loss of jobs to overseas (and the erosion of our manufacturing base), the standard of living for non union workers and the economy as a whole?” - J
human, your question points towards a much larger issue. First, for this discussion, lets return to limiting it to the auto industry. For me, to look only at the number of jobs in this one industry in two entirely differently run countries does little to gain true clarity of the issue. IF one did this alone, one could say that China has the better system. However, to take this limited view ignores things like the living conditions of the specific workers involved, those who decades ago lost their jobs, those in China (and other countries) who have a different standard of living than that which is ‘average’ in the USA, the fact that as any movement towards either a more egalitarian global situation and/or a movement towards a change in dominance continues, such things are inevitable. One rather large issue in my view is the air that we all breath. It is well known that these days much of the air near Chinese manufacturing centers is worse than even the now more deregulated air standards cause here in the US. In the early days of US manufacturing, the air (and water and land etc.) began to be more than just unhealthy. This lasted for many decades and many people suffered and died as a result. Of course, many of these early workers were children and working 14-16 hours a day and getting pennies a day if that. The situation for these hard working people did not just magically change and for sure it didn’t change due to good intentions of the plant owners. For a moment, I will point to the fact that the above environmental and human impact affected more than the workers themselves. It impacted generations of people. Taking a big jump, one might do a small analogy with these early days of Chinese dominance. For this one post, I won’t go into the history of how unions were formed and how they helped change the quality of life for the majority of people in the US. That is for either another time or the reader to research themselves. However, what is very clear is that today any attempt at improving the people who actually produce cars working conditions will be met with full dictatorial force. So, for now, these people will continue to live as they do. And, I am not so naïve as to think that either China is a ‘backward’ country today nor that the living standard of people back when I first studied China, in the 1950s and looking back to the 40s, is in any specific way worse than it used to be. In some ways, (lack of yearly famines) it can be seen as being better. In others, not so much. It is a mixed bag as is it here in the US. I know that I may appear to have gone far afield from your post human, however to do otherwise is to ignore much of both history and reality. Also, I can speak from a point of some personal experience, having lost a well paid (administrative) job last century due to direct Chinese competition. Having been head of finance and having studied different manufacturing methods for quite a while, the situation is not at all a black/white one. Not even close! And, when differing political, economical and social beliefs and systems are thrown into the mix, the real situation begins to emerge. To your specific question, the percentage of union workers in the US has dramatically declined over the last few decades. And, this is no accident nor something that the workers themselves wanted to occur. Nor was it a result of manufacturing competition in other countries, at least not as a primary factor. And, to fully address the issue, one must address things like state funded businesses, non-state funded businesses and mixes. One must address environmental standards. One must address humanitarian standards. One must address avarice. One must address the enormous change in tariff laws here and abroad over the last century or more. Oh, I wish the situation were as simple as taking some political or ideological sound bite and regurgitating it over and over! It isn’t. On Dec 12, 9:30 pm, [email protected] wrote: > Yes, China doesn't have unions. We have unions. Unions make it possible for > non-union workers who make a third of their income to buy $10,000.00 cars > for $30,000.00 and pay 3X more in interest. What effect does dramatically > higher labor cost have on our loss of jobs to overseas (and the erosion of > our > manufacturing base), the standard of living for non union workers and the > economy as a whole? > > J. > > humanis, China doesn't have unions. > > On Dec 12, 6:48 pm, [email protected] wrote: > > > > > Unions! > > > J. > > > And just why has the manufacturing base of the US been eroded? > > > hint: don't try to blame the workers > > > On Dec 12, 12:52 pm, Clogtowner <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi y'all - to put it in a nutshell, the manufacturing base of this > > > country has been eroded to the point where all tokens outside the > > > casino are worthless. Even the eucharist is only worth half its > > > original value and it is made in China. > > > > On Dec 12, 2:23 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Some of those statements are extreme such as claiming that no regard > > > > was taken for the long-term production, etc. > > > > > On Dec 12, 2:20 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent this as a letter to the editor for the Memphis Flyer, which > > > > > will hopefully generate some more discussion. I just based this > off > > > > > of "The Token Economy: A Motivational System for Therapy and > > > > > Rehabilitation" by Teodoro Ayllon and Nathan Azrin. It may not > > > > > entirely fit but experimental analysis of how to motivate people to > > > > > engage in tasks by giving them slips of paper with token values may > > > > > serve as an okay model for our economy as a whole. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > "OUR TOKEN ECONOMY" > > > > > > I think that most people understand what is happening with our > > > > > economy. You can conduct a complex analysis of the equally > > > > > complicated market but the simple truth still plays a major role, > that > > > > > is, our tokens (money) are exchanged for wanted goods and services. > > > > > Since we no longer support the gold standard, our tokens will be > > > > > worthless in the United States and the world economy if valuable > goods > > > > > and services can’t back them up. > > > > > > As I see it, a few major mechanisms are at play. First, big > > > > > government has created a massive and expensive bureaucratic system, > > > > > which the private companies and taxpayers must support. You need > > > > > government but our government can’t and shouldn’t be expected to do > > > > > everything. Second, Wall Street has accumulated too many tokens in > > > > > the hands of too few individuals and these Wall Street individuals > > > > > have given these tokens to other individuals who aren’t producing a > > > > > lot of goods and services in exchange for these tokens—bad > > > > > investment. Remember that token values are primarily based on what > > > > > goods and services can be exchanged for these tokens and the tokens > > > > > themselves are inherently worthless. Third, Wall Street and the > > > > > average investor have liquidated many production institutions > > > > > (companies) through mergers and other schemes to gain quick profits > > > > > without any regard to the effects on long-term production of > valuable > > > > > goods and services. Fourth, Wall Street and the average investor > have > > > > > undermined the free market forces by determining (in contrast to > > > > > allowing buyers to control) the fate of a company by its ability to > > > > > make a fast profit while ignoring its ability to produce value > goods > > > > > and services. This climate has lead to an obsession with tokens > and > > > > > a blind eye to what makes those tokens valuable: accompanying goods > > > > > and services. > > > > > > In my opinion, we need to focus on the basics. First, the government > > > > > has no choice but to inject tokens back into workers’ pockets to > avoid > > > > > freezing the financial systems or disrupting the delicate exchange > of > > > > > tokens for good and services. Second, we should (once again) focus > on > > > > > producing valuable goods and services. That means that we have to > > > > > continue to acquire skills and work hard with the more people > working > > > > > (instead of social-loafing) the better. Third, we cannot continue to > > > > > act as if more tokens without accompanying sellable goods and > services > > > > > will somehow increase the value of our tokens. That is unrealistic. > > > > > If money determined a country’s wealth, each African country could > > > > > become extraordinarily wealthy by solely manufacturing paper and > > > > > coined money. > > > > > > In sum, we need to start focusing more on the production of > valuable > > > > > goods and services and respect but stop obsessing over tokens.- Hide > > quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolco... 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