David Janes wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Martin McEvoy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Janes wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:06 AM, Toby A Inkster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
#3, I think, David first brought to this list, with class="hfeed
comments",
though I had previously proposed class="hfeed replies" to Sarven off-list
a
month or two ago. Advantages are that although an explicit connection is
given by placing the feed of replies within the thing being commented on,
it
requires no visible link at the comment level, and no fragment
identifiers
are required for each comment. This is a big advantage as it closely
matches
current publishing patterns. The disadvantages though are that it only
allows a comment to be in reply to one particular thing; and it forces
publishers of threaded messages to use one particular layout (the
threaded
one) rather than, say, a purely chronological order as the latter would
lose
connections between comments. (The threaded layout is of course the most
common in practice, but in general microformats have historically steered
away from enforcing any particular layout.)
"hfeed comments" has been kicking around since February, off list, and
I got the photos to prove it ;-)
I'm not sure why you think #3 forces a particular layout. Let me state
more formally:
* if Entry "B" is in an Entry Comments element of Entry "A", then
Entry "B" is a comment on Entry "A"
* an Entry Comments element is identified by using both class names
"hfeed comments"
That's it: you've got 100% coverage of all examples with no
presentation change and no required or implied changes to format
needed.
David, you are asserting that all comments are grouped in some way, for this
you should use xoxo this will give you the implied structure of a comment
list, a fair amount of the examples do imply structure and grouping in this
way by using <ul>, <ol> <dl>,
Did you actually go quantify this?: _Maybe that is how it should be
done_. Since there's no analysis of the examples except how it will
justify rel="in-reply-to", we don't know.
The same as your FALSE assertions that all comments are feeds how do you
assert that? I have not seen a single comment that looks like a feeed
in-reply-to is the popular approach supported by Sarven, Toby, and
myself, the suggested term is rel="in-reply-to", which I dont like
just rel="reply" will do, I have also Asserted that rel="reply" can be
defined as saying that The "reply" element is used to indicate that an
entry is a response to another resource. thats all nothing more....
"hfeed comments" is simply wrong because you are implying that "hfeed" is
required? if that's not true you are saying you can just use "comments"
does this mean that hfeed is Implied? if that's the case then what is the
point of using "hfeed" at all? , lastly all of this doesn't address a
comment, it only addresses the grouping of comments not the comment this
discussion does not go there (remember?).
I don't even know where to start addressing this paragraph: it doesn't
seem to correspond to anything I've written. In _every single example
shown comments appear grouped togther_. The argument being made is "we
get to ignore this because then rel="in-reply-to" looks kinda
pointless"
Infact this whole discussion is kinda pointless dont you think David?
because You are talking about thing that don't concern a comment
as for all the assertions you, and others are making "that a comment should
be marked up in hatom" is also wrong because certain basic requirements of
hAtom do not exist in a comment, an entry-title and a bookmarkable point
(only 40% have a permalink), comments made on other things (not blogs) very
rarely have a permalink also saying if an entry-title is not present "make
something up" is false semantics, you are saying that something exists when
it quite clearly doesn't
hAtom has very clear rules for how things get "made up": that's the
difference between a physical and logical model.
?...
"Making titles up" is
__exactly what happens in the real world on Atom feeds in the real
world corresponding to comments__. It might be inconvenient or ugly or
"oh god" but _that's how people do it_.
What by marking up a title element in a comment and leaving it empty, or
putting a note in there saying Make something UP, Is that really how
people do it? Show me the evidence David (and I dont mean a feed
example, I mean actual markup of a comment)...
I tried to get the conversation about a comment going again because it
really is a simple format to build and couldn't understand why a comment
format hasn't been addressed yet, now I know why, because some people don't
understand what the problem is and have preconceptions of how this should be
solved, which should be the simplest way, which is not dumping the whole
hAtom format on it, what If I don't want to use hAtom to mark up a comment?
I haven't got much choice have I?
If you want to mark up comments with microformats, using microformats
is your only choice. If you want to use microformats, then you have to
use the process, i.e. in particular:
...
- actually look how comments are being done
- look at how existing microformats can fit the the solution
I suggest you do the same David
The proposed rel="in-reply-to" solution that requires 60% of comment
makers to change _presentation_, requires the other 40% to add
semantically incorrect markup (which BTW no rel="in-reply-to"
proponents have bother to address yet) and ignores all the existing
microformats work so far.
So you don't Like rel-reply, Its too complex for you?, Fair enough, but
at least make a counter proposal that doesn't involve using a
sledgehammer to bang in a nail
so far a comment is made up of only 4 properties
* author (name)100%
* comment (text) 100%
* published (date) 100%
* author-url (href) 92%
How do those four properties fit into the hAtom scheme of things, do you
see a feed element?
Last thing David you still have not re-formatted your Selected
examples[1]? to just display information about a comment(like the rest
of the examples do), would you like me to do it for you?
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples#Selected_Examples
Thanks.
--
Martin McEvoy
http://weborganics.co.uk/
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