On Dec 15, 2007 3:08 PM, L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jack J. Woehr wrote: > >>> Well, no, you may. The problem is when two people sling poop on each > >>> other, > >>> sooner or later it ends, and then all you've got is two guys standing > >>> there looking > >>> sheepish, all covered with poop. > >>> > >> > >> How is this my fault? > >> > > It's not your fault. You're still standing there waiting for more poop to > > be flung on you though. > >> Richard slagged our efforts. In the public space. > >> > > Over the 1/4 century of flamefests I've seen online, the truth of the > > proposition under debate was obvious from the first few lines. The > > rest is gratuitous verbal violence. > > > > Flamewars do have benefits.. they get slashdot/kerneltrap publicity and > developers can be attracted to the operating system if they see things > in the flamewars that define where the projects are headed. OpenBSD is > headed for open code. GNU is headed for fighting for freedom. People can > see this from the flamewar and choose an OS that suits them. >
Amen. Despite how others may say "this brings an overly negative look to the group", I find it refreshing and absolutely needed. I've loved the honesty of this group for ages. Although the flame wars can get brutal, they are so very appropriate for the times. "Oh, this guy Stallman and his words should be respected, no matter how odd they seem... he's done *soo* much for the open/free movement!!" Give me a break. Stallman speaks. Theo and this group *do*. Since '98 I've been using various Linux and BSD distro's both for work and in private. For the past few years, I've noticed that the only real community who "shuts-up and produces" is OpenBSD. They may move slow in some areas, the progress may be brutal/ruthless on the mailing lists, and some may leave for "nicer" more "friendly" communities... but damn these people produce. And they don't produce crap. Everything original from this group has been nothing less than top-notch software with excellent documentation. I can rarely afford to donate (honestly), but this flame has done nothing but re-affirm my belief that the OpenBSD community is FAR more than a net positive for good, quality, free software... they don't just preach, THEY PRODUCE. As such, my ass (no matter how poor...and in all honestly, not *that* poor... I just like good beer :) got out of my chair and donated. I encourage the rest of you who support obsd to do the same. > True, flamewars can also detract developers who are sensitive and weak > and cannot accept a little beating. > > (p.s. I submitted the flamewar to slashdot a day ago. Go to firehose.pl > script and vote it in if you want. So far it has been ignored, yet it > made it to kernaltrap already.. hmm.) > > For about 5 years now I've been looking for an operating system that > doesn't have the whole freedom of speech attached to it, since I don't > fall for that. This recent flamewar simply helped confirm my instinct > that openbsd is not about some idealistic freedom of speech. So the > flamewar has positive points, because I confirmed that it's the > operating system I am installing on a few servers of mine that host over > 5 million pages. > > On the other hand, wimps can say 'blah, OpenBSD people are mean, I'd > never use that OS (The OpenBSD Cliche). > > I will repeat some previous quotes I brought up once: > > "A philosopher who did not hurt anyone's feelings was not doing his job." > --Plato (source: Wikipedia) An appropriate quote. For someone who's not that old, and only been involved in "free" software since I was 18, I constantly find myself attacked for being "too young to appreciate what others have done". Basically, I'm told to "respect my elders no matter what they say now". OK - I haven't followed Stallman et alia since their inception, so I can't really speak for what happened before my time (at least not with the first-hand 'authority' that others seem to demand). ...But since I have been working in the community, this group has PRODUCED while others have only SPOKEN. > > "A programmer who did not hurt anyone's feelings was not doing his job." > --L505 (source: Z505) > > One has to speak up and stick up for his programming/philosophy > practices sometimes, otherwise he won't be heard. The guy who spoke up > about earth not being flat was ridiculed, flamed, and arrested. > > If you just give in and back down in a flamewar, you may not refresh and > define your true goals in a project. You may not attract more developers > who have similar beliefs. You may not gain publicity. Bad publicity can > be good publicity. > > ALL PROGRAMMERS are aggressive online. Every time you fix a bug, you are > being aggressive to the computer. All security experts are aggressive > online.. how do you think we aggressively find exploits and bugs? That > doesn't mean they are bad people in person and as a whole. Every time > you make a sign with the word ENEMY OF YOUR FREEDOM on it you are being > unfriendly too. Blah, who cares. Judge an operating system by its open > code and open attitude.. not some random occasional fun flamewar. > > Flamewars are natural and sometimes they can actually help define a > projects goals and weed out some of the weaker folk who just can't take > a fun flamewar. > > > L505 > > I haven't commented until now, and I don't intend to contribute further... ... except to say that if you feel remotely similar, then get off your ass and donate. A hackathon is not too far in the future, and this group could use it. Oh, and they will not be using the hackathon to sit around and debate "freedom"...they will actually be producing something. I hope this group never changes. -ryan
