This is an email written by John Petty of Heritage Comics who is having trouble posting to MOPO as a member and has forwarded to me to post. Grey Smith Heritage Galleries
Hi Rich: I have to say I'm a bit surprised to see this post of yours, as I know you've been in the comic and movie poster fields for quite some time. Needless to say, I disagree with quite a bit of what you're saying here, so bear with me as I work through your post point by point: "JR has made one of the most salient comparisons he could have when he compared high prices in comics to be a death knell for the ordinary collector." I suppose my first question here is, Who is the "ordinary collector?" Is it someone who buys high-end, grade Golden Age key books (or Universal horror posters)? I'd say that kind of collector is far from ordinary. People at that end of the scale are probably not going to be affected by the market and economic forces you describe below. Consequently, the "death knell" has nothing to do with them. "While comic dealers and others may trumpet how good high prices are, anyone must realize the dangers they pose to any hobby." How so? In my position, formerly as Director of Auctions for Heritage Comics and now as Director of Media Relations for Heritage Galleries, I've seen nothing but robustness and strength in both the comic and the movie poster fields over the last three years. I hear from new collectors every day; people that enter one field or another from another collectible field. If anything, comics and movie posters are expanding their reach, not contracting. High prices stimulate the market. I've talked to countless consignors who have brought treasures out of long-held private collections who have told me, "With prices as strong as they are, I just had to sell!" This is good for everybody, as it brings to light rarities that might otherwise have been buried for years or might never have come to market. What dangers, specifically, are you talking about? "For instance, in an economy where 50% of the population makes less than $25,000 a year, you would have to wonder how that half could possibly afford to collect anything, and you have to go all the way up to the top 5% of the American population to get to $50,000 a year." The fact is, Rich, collectors find things to collect. I personally know people who collect everything from barbed wire (I live in Texas, remember) to antique fish tank ornaments. It's a wacky world we live in, and everything is treasured by someone. Unless you're talking about high-end collectibles only (which I don't think you are, as you started your letter by talking about the "ordinary collector"), there are plenty of ways to collect virtually anything on a budget. I'm confident that if someone came into your gallery and wanted to start collecting movie posters on a budget of under $1,000, that you'd find a way to help them build a sweet collection within their means. Remember those cool Doc Savage pulps you helped get me into in the early 1980s? "You must also remember that the average cost of living in any good sized city in America is $48,000 it doesn't leave very much for spending money without sacrificing something else and while most collectors would happily sacrifice eating to get that comic book or poster, if that goes on too long.. one more collector gone!" Not at all. I know for a fact that there are plenty of collectors out there who manage to build and maintain nice collections on very modest budgets, and manage to do so even while juggling the demands of home, family and whatever. I'm sure there are plenty of examples on this very list. Can we all afford to collect Golden and Silver Age keys or Universal horror? No, we can't (I sure can't), but putting together a nice collection within one's means is certainly not rocket science. "Back in the middle 80's I was on the way to becoming the top dealer of original comic art & pulp illustration in the world. Only Russ Cochran was on my level. Well as time went by, I only began selling more & more expensive items. So in 1986 I took in $20,000 at San Diego Comicon (SDC from here on ) with about 400 customers. at SDC in 1990 I took in $35K, but with only 150 customers. In 1992 I did $40K with less than 100 and in 1995 I took in over $50K, but with only 40 buyers as they were the only ones who could afford my stuff. Not only that, I was finding I could not afford to buy collections anymore as the prices had become so high & the margin was getting so low that I was going to have to start taking in almost $1,000,000 a year to make the same profits I made in 1989 one $350K. In other words I would have to work 3times as hard to make no extra." Well, Rich, not to be too snarky, but one could interpret this as having as much to do with your prices as with anything else. And using San Diego as an example really slants the argument. You're talking about one of the most expensive, and most competitive, conventions in the world. It's tough for anyone to make their nut in SD. You're also focusing on a period of time in which original art was becoming more and more collectible. I started collecting original art in about 1983, when I was buying John Romita Jr AMAZING SPIDER-MAN covers for $100 (the same covers could easily fetch in the four-to-five figure range today). It wasn't too long after that that the market started to take off, as more and more people got into it. Not a bad thing, just the reality of the market. Frankly Rich, and I don't say this in a bad way, you were one of the people that raised market perception about original art to begin with. By your efforts, you made collectors realize that this stuff, forme! rly considered worthless production material, had value. The price of success and all that... "But wait there's more, at the same time several bigtime collector's had either stopped collecting, or personal issues (like divorce, loss of good job etc) removed these top customers from the field resulting in difficulty achieving the same high price were getting for things like Flash Gordon Sunday pages by Alex Raymond (up to $50K in 1991, same pages sold in 1996 for $15) and taking losses on those items to move them out, or be forced to hold them for 10 years to sell which is a negative." But those old-time collectors who moved out were replaced with new collectors. Markets like this are cyclical. For example, we're just now starting to see the market for Kirby art and newspaper strip art rebound after hitting a low point for several years. That's just the nature of things. As a dealer, you have to be responsive to the changes in a constantly-shifting market. That's just the business you've chosen to go into. "Today comics & comic book art are in my own opinion the most overpriced hobbies there are and anything good is beyond the average collector in price." OK, here's where we really get into the meat of it, and I couldn't disagree with you more. 'Anything good is beyond the average collector in price'? That's pretty short sighted. I could list dozens of purchases that I've made personally in the last six months that would put the lie to this statement. If, by 'anything good', you specifically mean high-grade Gold and Silver (or to state it in poster terms, Universal monster material), then you're right. That is beyond the means of most collectors. But there's a plethora of 'good stuff' out there just begging to b picked up. At Heritage, we've been selling original Harvey comics art by such artists as Warren Kremer, Howie Post and Marty Taras. This is, by any reasonable measure, 'good stuff', and yet it's affordable to virtually anyone. Can't afford High-grade Gold and Silver? How about collecting High-grade Bronze instead? I recently bought a copy of MISTER MIRACLE #1, CGC-graded 9.6 with a double cover for $400. Good stuff in! deed, and quite affordable. Can't afford Universal monster material? How about Japanese monster material? I picked up a one-sheet for GODZILLA VS. THE THING off eBay recently in great shape for about $100. How's that for affordable? I think your definition of 'good' is too narrow, Rich. There's plenty of great stuff out there, if you're willing to broaden your scope beyond the top 1% of the market. Original Kirby art too expensive for you? I've bought color guides from Kirby's Fourth World books for $10 a page. There's a lot of silent movie material, once you get past the Chaney's and the Valentinos, that can be had for next to nothing. The trick is to always look for areas that no one else is collecting. That was the case with original art in the early 1980s, and you and I have both profited by that. Lots of Western material, in both comics and movie posters, is horribly under priced right now, IMO. There's lots of great stuff there that could be had on a modest budget. I! t's all in how you look at things. "If you want to complete a collection of Spiderman in fine condition (which is the minimum condition for investment) it would cost you something in the range of $150,000. A near mint, slabbed collection in 9.0 or better could get to $1,000,000." But now you're talking about investments, which is a whole other ball of wax. $150k isn't outrageous in terms of serious investment capital, but I didn't think that's what we were talking about. Believe me, you can put together a respectable run of SPIDER-MAN for much less than the prices you've quoted. "How many of you wish to be at the mercy of such a market where it's possible the only collector for that item at that price actually dictates the market price instead of you as the seller and he is very simply the ONLY collector at that level??" But isn't this the case in ANY high-end collectibles market? How many people are really in the market for a Van Gogh or a Picasso? "To me it's a simple calculation, at an auction when something sells for $50,000, but only 2 players are over $25K. When the $50K buyer wishes to sell..... the item is not worth $50K but the $25K that was forced by the presence of the $24,500 bidder and anyone who bought another copy of that poster at $50K because he thought it was worth it because of the auction price realized is in for a rude awakening... and that is as bad for the hobby as Enron stock raping a Wall Street investor." I don't understand your point here. If a poster sells at auction for $50k, it means that there was another buyer willing to pay $45k (or thereabouts). That's how auctions work. That's why it's safer, from an investment standpoint to buy a piece like this at auction rather than from a private dealer. You can feel comfortable that you're buying at, or close to, market, and not just paying some dealer's arbitrary price. "Of course the fact that now everyone with a Cat People poster is going to ask $12K will bring an end to the sale. That poster is worth the same $4000 today it was yesterday.. unless you are Bruce H and have very simply the best customer base there is." Sometimes there are market anomalies, no doubt. Researching past auction prices over a period of time, rather than taking one particular sale to be gospel, is an easy way to combat this. "About slabbing collectibles... No one mentioned the reason comics are slabbed. One reason.. investors !!" That's one reason, certainly, but far from the only reason. Another excellent reason for slabbing is to inspire market confidence and even the playing field between dealers and collectors. "When you go to SDC and every dealer has a Spider Man #1, the only difference between them is how each individual dealer grades the same copy of the book and grading the same copy differently can mean $1000's to the dealer who grades it at very fine instead of the guy who honestly grades it at fine-very fine. So in comes a third party who will be recognized as the independent arbiter (Comics Guaranty Company or CGC) and places a grade that is recognized by all dealers without dispute, so now a collector - or more specifically an investor - can come in & know with a reasonable certainty that no dealer can try to cheapen his copy when he goes to sell it and therefore his investment is protected." Again, Rich, are we talking about investors or collectors here? They're two very different parts of the market with very different needs. IMO, CGC helps both groups, however. "What has resulted of course is that a "census" of number of issues of that title has also been able to be manufactured so everyone can see that comics in 9.8 are rare and investors value them at as much as 20x value. A Spawn #1 in 10.0 (only known copy in that grade) sold for over $2000 in 2003 which was something like 100x the listed guide value." That's the beauty of a free-market economy, isn't it? Someone wanted the very best possible copy of that book, and was willing to pay for it. What's wrong with that? "Another way to look at it.. the comics hobby cooked up the perfect scam to be able to reap profits they would not have otherwise been able to get." That's pretty harsh, Rich. How do you see a "scam" in offering a service to the comics community? CGC isn't setting prices on the books they grade. They're merely inspecting the books and rendering an opinion as to condition. I don't see that as a "scam". "But they also froze out anyone making under $100,000 a year from becoming a serious collector." Don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of people who don't make anywhere near $100k who I would consider to be very serious collectors. Personally, I manage to collect both graded and non-graded comics, as well as original art and movie posters on a budget that few would consider extravagant. Frankly, I couldn't afford a DETECTIVE #27 or a MARVEL COMICS #1 before CGC, so that hasn't changed anything for me. I'd assume I'm not very different than the majority of collectors out there. "That is very bad for the hobby. There has to be massive collectors at the bottom levels who become the bottom of the pyramid & work their way up so that years from now they become the top collectors. With Heritage and others, the only thing that exists is the top of the pyramid today and there is no bottom, so will there be collectors moving up the pyramid becomes the question for the future and that's when the pyramid crumbles to dust." Again, this is just silly. Take a look at our Past Auction Archives. Take a look at the number of lots we sell, both in comics and in movie posters, for under $100. We also provide more solid information than anyone about these fields, specifically designed to turn today's novices into tomorrow's experts. There's a solid collector base out there, Rich, and it's getting stronger and stronger all the time. "this was just my way of saying that prices of collectibles increasing at a pace that is faster than the populace's increasing fortunes is dangerous for any hobby.... including movie posters.." At Heritage, we have a vested interest in keeping all these hobbies strong and thriving. We want to see comics, original art, movie posters, entertainment memorabilia, sports collectibles, and all the rest thrive for years and years to come. We realize, to that end, that there are many ways to approach collecting and we want to try to satisfy as many of them as possible. Rather than shout the doom of the hobby from the rooftops, as you seem to be doing in this post, I'm here to tell you that the markets are alive and strong, and 2005 ought to be a great year for everybody. Have a great holiday season, Rich, and I'll talk to you soon. Best regards, John E. Petty === -----Original Message----- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Halegua Comic Art Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] Why are super-high prices good and slabbed collectibles. JR has made one of the most salient comparisons he could have when he compared high prices in comics to be a death knell for the ordinary collector. While comic dealers and others may trumpet how good high prices are, anyone must realize the dangers they pose to any hobby.For instance, in an economy where 50% of the population makes less than $25,000 a year, you would have to wonder how that half could possibly afford to collect anything, and you have to go all the way up to the top 5% of the american population to get to $50,000 a year. You must also remember that the average cost of living in any good sized city in America is $48,000 it doesn't leave very much for spending money without sacrificing something else and while most collectors would happily sacrifice eating to get that comic book or poster, if that goes on too long.. one more collector gone! Back in the middle 80's I was on the way to becoming the top dealer of original comic art & pulp illustration in the world. Only Russ Cochran was on my level. Well as time went by, I only began selling more & more expensive items. So in 1986 I took in $20,000 at San Diego Comicon (SDC from here on ) with about 400 customers. at SDC in 1990 I took in $35K, but with only 150 customers. In 1992 I did $40K with less than 100 and in 1995 I took in over $50K, but with only 40 buyers as they were the only ones who could afford my stuff. Not only that, I was finding I could not afford to buy collections anymore as the prices had become so high & the margin was getting so low that I was going to have to start taking in almost $1,000,000 a year to make the same profits I made in 1989 one $350K. In other words I would have to work 3times as hard to make no extra. But wait there's more, at the same time several bigtime collector's had either stopped collecting, or personal issues (like divorce, loss of good job etc) removed these top customers from the field resulting in difficulty achieving the same high price were getting for things like Flash Gordon sunday pages by Alex Raymond (up to $50K in 1991, same pages sold in 1996 for $15) and taking losses on those items to move them out, or be forced to hold them for 10 years to sell which is a negative. Today comics & comic book art are in my own opinion the most overpriced hobbies there are and anything good is beyond the average collector in price. If you want to complete a collection of Spiderman in fine condition (which is the minimum condition for investment) it would cost you soemthing in the range of $150,000. A near mint, slabbed collection in 9.0 or better could get to $1,000,000. How many of you wish to be at the mercy of such a market where it's possible the only collector for that item at that price actually dictates the market price instead of you as the seller and he is very simply the ONLY collector at that level?? To me it's a simple calculation, at an auction when something sells for $50,000, but only 2 players are over $25K. When the $50K buyer wishes to sell..... the item is not worth $50K but the $25K that was forced by the presence of the $24,500 bidder and anyone who bought another copy of that poster at $50K because he thought it was worth it because of the auction price realized is in for a rude awakening... and that is as bad for the hobby as Enron stock raping a Wall Street investor. Of course teh fact that now everyone with a Cat People poster is going to ask $12K will bring an end to the sale. That poster is worth the same $4000 today it was yesterday.. unless you are Bruce H and have very simply the best customer base there is. About slabbing collectibles... No one mentioned the reason comics are slabbed. One reason.. investors !! When you go to SDC and every dealer has a Spider Man #1, the only difference between them is how each individual dealer grades the same copy of the book and grading the same copy differently can mean $1000's to the dealer who grades it at very fine instead of the guy who honestly grades it at fine-very fine. So in comes a third party who will be recognized as the independent arbiter (Comics Guaranty Company or CGC) and places a grade that is recognized by all dealers without dispute, so now a collector - or more specifically an investor - can come in & know with a reasonable certainty that no dealer can try to cheapen his copy when he goes to sell it and therefore his investment is protected. What has resulted of course is that a "census" of number of issues of that title has also been able to be manufactured so everyone can see that comics in 9.8 are rare and investors value them at as much as 20x value. A Spawn #1 in 10.0 (only known copy in that grade) sold for over $2000 in 2003 which was something like 100x the listed guide value. Another way to look at it.. the comics hobby cooked up the perfect scam to be able to reap profits they would not have otherwise been able to get. But they also froze out anyone making under $100,000 a year from becoming a serious collector. That is very bad for the hobby. There has to be massive collectors at the bottom levels who become the bottom of the pyramid & work their way up so that years from now thety become the top collectors. With Heritage and others, the only thing that exists is the top of the pyramid today and there is no bottom, so will there be collectors moving up the pyramid becomes the question for the future and that's when the pyramid crumbles to dust. this was just my way of saying that prices of collectibles increasing at a pace that is faster than the populace's increasing fortunes is dangerous for any hobby.... including movie posters.. Rich=========================== At 06:51 PM 12/19/04, J R wrote: >If you're a seller, don't bother to answer that question. But if you're in >the majority -- someone who buys for their own collection with no real >intention of selling anytime soon, if ever -- then how can this sudden, >recent rash of ultra-high pricing (for even some of the more common stuff) >possibly be considered "good" for you? Or for the hobby? > >I've been wondering out loud about this for some time... about the absurd >prices the "better" posters now seem to be going for on a regular basis. >Back in the 1980's this effect swept through comic book collecting. It >continued and got to the point where by now you simply must be a rich >person -- not doing well, but actually *rich* -- to buy and collect the >"really nice comics". A person of average means just can't buy them >anymore, even if they only eat rice and beans for dinner all year. > >Now I suppose some will trot out the worn old maxim about "something is >only worth what someone wants to pay for it" (as if that explained or >justified anything when there are so many millionaires in the world). And >there will be others who say, well so what? That's just the way the >capitalist cookie crumbles and trickles down on the rest of the world. But >I say it's a damn shame nonetheless. Anyway, it looks like this elitist >shut-out is now happening to all the "really nice movie posters" -- even >the lobby cards! > >What can be done about it? Nothing. But let's not all of us pretend that >this trend is good for everybody, shall we? > >-- JR > >Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com >___________________________________________________________________ >How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List >Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L >The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/04 > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > > Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
