Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL

[Richard Halegua Comic Art]

Erik

There was a court case where a teen's attorney in his murder trial
claimed that "the Matrix" and certain violent video games attributed
to his maladies that caused him to murder. He was convicted, however
no specific determination was made as to the veracity of his defense
claims, which would be extremely difficult to prove. the teen killers
at Columbine High School were personally influenced by the Matrix and
video games as well. Did it make them kill? Who really knows?

However, from my perspective as a one-time inner city youth from a
fractured, lower class family, and who himself was no angel when he
was young.. I fully believe that violent films can certainly have an
effect on those who are not strong enough to resist urges to lash out
against anyone as a response - however misguided - to their own lack
of love or material possessions because they think - again however
misguided - that it will make them feel better

Moreover, I'm not certain what you define as "normal". Normal to one
- is far from normal to another. So it would be incredibly difficult
to say that someone from a good family is more normal that someone who is not.

There is something called motivation. In psychological understanding,
there is something called "a trigger". When understanding why someone
kills, you have to understand what was the motivation and what was
the trigger, as well as other factors like compulsion, impulse and
even things like normal violent response. How many of you fellas, as
children, went into the yard & while you were playing with your toys,
just killed insects and ants because you thought it was fun?

In the 1940's there was a murder case where the accused claimed
violence in movies made him kill. In 1940, you'd be hard pressed to
find any violence in film as we know it

Now I think we can all agree that a the scene in Reefer Madness where
the guy starts playing piano, then smokes a joint, then becomes a
lunatic & picks up an axe & kills his friends is a total parody. But
in 1938 I have no doubt that most people believed that scene to be true.

We are absolutely a creation of the time we are in, and of our
individual environment. I was able to leave behind my life of crime
and cocaine as an inner city youth when I was still young. I also
had  a way to make a living as I always sold collectibles, even as a
kid (started selling comics at 9). So because I was able to create a
livelihood, I was able to escape.. Many of our youth today feel
disenfranchised when their parents don't buy them a new Mustang
convertible. Or in other words, where I felt disenfranchised as a
teen because my father left, and my mother couldn't buy or wouldn't
buy me 1 pair of pants a year and only my fellow low income youth
felt this way.. today even the rich kids feel this way, so normalcy
is at best an subjective opinion

To understand any other person, you must be able to understand them
objectively or in other words "Uninfluenced by emotions or personal
prejudices: an objective critic"

Do I think that video games, movies, salacious television and other
environmental phenomena do indeed contribute to criminal & violent
reaction in those who are susceptible.  YES, without question. Do I
think that by going to a movie & seeing Texas Chainsaw, or Devil's
Rejects or Hostel, or even by watching an episode of Ozzie &
Harriett, followed by 16 hours of Hazel will just make someone get up
and go kill randomly when they leave the theatre. Not really. But I
have a really hard time thinking that anyone during the course of
time can be un-affected by watching this type of film regularly.

Rich=============================



At 02:48 PM 1/18/2006, Erik wrote:

JR,

I appreciate you "allowing" me to like one film over another, it's most
appreciated.

As we are going in circles here (and the funny thing is, I didn't even like
Hostel) but you still can't give me one documented case of violent media
causing a "normal" (for lack of  a better word) person to snap and kill,
maim or injure someone. If so, put up or...have  a nice day.

Cheers,
Erik

----- Original Message -----
From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Erik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL

Erik,

You're quite right about the state of the world, which is why I feel
strongly about the dangers of continuing to expose impressionable young
people(all around the world)  to all of this realistic ultra-violence,
torture and psycho-sadism in film and television (cable). We are what we
eat. Or watch. I am thinking of the three teens who just recently went
around beating homeless people to death with baseball bats in Fort
Lauderdale. They were not created by Arab bombers or genocide in Africa.
They were a product of our culture -- and for the young video games and
films are a *huge* part of their culture.

That's my entire point regarding the trend towards ever more realistic and
over-the-top violence porn films. If it were "only just a movie" that
wouldn't matter so much. But for far too many impressionable young people
it
is their world... it is what shapes their feelings and beliefs. People
want
to deny this, but the evidence shows its true.

As for what I mean about your cinematic analytical ability being "damaged"
by such films... look, of course you're entitled to *like* TCM more than
CITIZEN KANE (that's personal taste), but if you honestly believe TCM is a
better movie than CITIZEN KANE... or that RE-ANIMATOR (which I love) is a
better movie than GONE WITH THE WIND, then your critical facilities have
been damaged in some way. Sorry, but that's just the facts. Personal taste
is one thing, but critical evaluation of the merits of one film over
another
has to go beyond simple personal taste.

-- JR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 13:37
Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL

JR,

No need fo rme to be pissed at all. You are entilted to your opinions, no
matter how incorrect or off-base they are (regarding me, anyway).

I'm not going to give my entire life history as a) no one would read it

and

b) I hate typing (as evidienced by my many typographical errors), but
suffice it to say I had very limited entertainment choices when I was

young,

seeing as how we had 3 channels on the tube. Then, around 1981 we got a
satellite dish. Lo and behold the world of uncut films right in your own
home was a reality, and I watched a steady diet of The Movie Channel and
Cinemax's racy efforts (horror and their soft-core stuff that some find
titillating) behind my parent's backs. By God, I must be an anomoly as I
grew up in a loving home with both (gasp) parents who stood behind me in

my

dream of becoming a filmmaker one day.

I can't tell you how many beheadings, guttings, evicerations etc I've
seen
over the years, and while I haven't delved into films as much as I'd
like,
I'm currently working with many of the horror heros I grew up watching: I
run official websites for Betsy Palmer (a lovely lady and dear friend,

whom

many on this list will know from her other non-horror roles) Ari Lehman

(the

original Jason from Friday the 13th) and many others, as well as run a
successful apparel company specializing in horror-themed merchandise.

I'm happily married for the past 6 years with a beautiful wife and

daughter

of 4, I own my own business and last time I checked have never killed
anyone, beaten anyone with a bat (I do like to fight, but only in the

dojo)

and am as about as whitebread normal as you can get (minus the skull

tattoos

I supose). Please explain what part of  "sadly influenced to a damaging
degree" applies to me, mmkay?

And last but not least, our world is far from civilized, amigo.
Beheadings
in the name of Allah, strapping bombs to your child's body for the

religion

of peace, cutting the hands off a shoplifter, genocide in Sudan...what

part

of this uncivilization and barbarism did horror films play a role in? It
ain't all fluffy clouds and butterflies, anywhere.

Cheers,
Erik

----- Original Message -----
From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Erik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL


> Erik,
>
> Sorry, dude, but if your statements below are serious, then from your

own

> statements you've identified yourself as a product of the problem we're
> discussing. Sorry to be so blunt, but at least as far as your cinema
> tastes/critical facilities go, it would seem you've been sadly

influenced

> to
> a damaging degree by these films, which is exactly the point.
> Naturally,

I

> don't expect you to see it this way (and I fully expect you to be quite
> pissed at me for looking at it that way). You talk about choice, but
> how
> much choice about being exposed to this violence pollution did you have
> when
> you were very young... when your tastes were being formed? How much of

it

> just seeped into your consciousness through TV commercials for such

films,

> from being allowed to see these films when you were young, and other
> exposure media-glorifications of violence which have become so common?
>
> Do you really not understand the difference between a genuine horror

film

> and a gratuitous torture fest?
>
> If you "get an emotional stimulus" that you "enjoy receiving" from the
> later, am I supposed to believe that's cool? Sorry, man, it's not. Not

in

> a
> civilized world.
>
> -- JR
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 22:05
> Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL
>
>
>> People watch horror films the same reason some people ride roller
> coasters,
>> or skydive, or watch a sappy tearjerker: it gives them an emotional
> stimulus
>> they enjoy receiving. It's not for everyone.
>>
>> Tastes are different, and "positive contributions" may be one thing to
>> you
>> and another to I. I'll take Tobe Hooper's Texas Chainsaw Massacre over
>> Citizen Kane any day of the week. Re-Animator trounces Gone With the

Wind

> in
>> my house. Am I supposed to feel somewhat less of a movie fan because
>> of
>> my
>> tastes in cinema? Is the fact that I own Cannibal Holocaust supposed
>> to
> make
>> me a sick, depraved prevert, regardless of how "normal" my life is?
>> I think not. What floats your boat may not work for me, bunky. Such is
>> the
>> beauty of choice.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Erik
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "JOHN REID Vintage Movie Memorabilia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL
>>
>>
>> >I have never been able to understand the fascination with extreme

horror

>> > films or the motivation of those who make them. Perhaps it is just

the

>> > cheap
>> > thrill or a perverted form of shock value but it is all a mystery to
>> > me.
> I
>> > believe that, despite what some sociologists might claim, there is a
>> > direct
>> > correlation between violence in movies and the many violent and
>> > horrific
>> > crimes that seem to occur daily. I guess those who make these films
>> > will
>> > make money from them but it is a pity that they cannot direct their
>> > talents
>> > into making films that can make a positive contribution.
>> >
>> >
>> > JOHN REID VINTAGE MOVIE MEMORABILIA
>> > PO Box 92
>> > Palm Beach
>> > Qld 4221
>> > Australia
>> >
>> > Website: www.moviemem.com
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Phil Edwards Cinema Arts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:01 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL
>> >
>> >
>> >> Erik is correct of course, most most notably in his last two paras

of

>> >> his post.
>> >>
>> >> I probably won't see HOSTEL unless it's as  a freebie on DVD down

the

>> >> track.
>> >>
>> >> I haven't bothered to see remakes of DAWN OF THE DEAD or TCM
>> >> either.
>> >> It's a matter of choice. I can think of a dozen movies that I would
>> >> choose head of eitehr of these to watch given the amount of fre

rtime

>> >> I
>> >> have to watch movies these days.
>> >>
>> >> But it has nothing to do with content, although perhaps subject

matter

>> >> is an issue in making a choice, preferring an "emotional adrenalin
> rush"
>> >> to a more "visceral adrenalin rush". I like films that disturb me
>> >> emotionmally and promote thought about "difficult" emotions over

films

>> >> that really just make me choke with a  gag reflex....
>> >>
>> >> but.... in past there were films like NOTLD DEAD, DAWN OF THE DEAD,
>> >> TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, HALLOWEEN, NIKGHTMARE ON ELM STREET, etc,
>> >> etc... and they all received similar commenatry at the time of
>> >> their
>> >> release as films like HOSTEL and SAW  receive today.
>> >>
>> >> I'm re-reading David Skal's excellent book THE MONSTER SHOW....
>> >> essential reading for serious horror fans as are all of David's
>> >> books.... and guess what? The contemporary 1932 critical quotes to
>> >> FREAKS and MURDERS IN THE RUE MORGUE could almost be identical,
>> >> just
>> >> by
>> >> replacing 'FEAKS' with 'HOSTEL'.
>> >>
>> >> So much of this stuff has to do with changing sensibilities and the
> need
>> >> every few years for film makers to "revolt" against the kind of
> creeping
>> >> conservatism that permeates through politics and society and into
>> >> popular arts (like film). Why do you think American independent
>> >> film
>> >> makers did such a huge cage rattel in the late 1960s, apart from
>> >> protesting another commercially-driven war?
>> >>
>> >> BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN and HOSTEL are likely coming out of the same

school

>> >> in some ways... the school of WAKE-UP film making. They may achieve

a

>> >> different aesthetic and through different means, but at least they

are

>> >> honest in their (quite diverse) intentions/methods, unlike
>> >> something
>> >> like THE PASSION, which was a gorehound movie masquerading as an
>> >> uplifting spiritual experience.
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Erik wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I was in attendance at a screening with Eli Roth in Texas not to

long

>> >>> ago, and while I didn't care for Hostel (or Roth's work in
>> >>> general)

I

>> >>> for one am thankful that hard-core (not in the pornographic sense
>> >>> that
>> >>> many attatch to the word) horror is making a comeback.
>> >>>
>> >>> I cut my teeth on the Golden Age of Slasher Films during the late
>> >>> 70's
>> >>> to the mid 80's and as of late, the genre has become so PC,
>> >>> watered-down and weak-kneed by catering to the PG-13 teeny-bopper
>> >>> crowd (as the recent glut of crap with Kevin Williamson's name
>> >>> attached to it attests) that I thank my bloody stars that a film

like

>> >>> Hostel is even seeing the light of day, much less getting national
>> >>> distribution. This is nothing more then a drive-in flick at best,

and

>> >>> it's #1 opening was a welcome sight to this ol' gorehound's jaded
>> >>> retinas.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not delving into the "bad movies/bad tv debate" as it's

pointless

>> >>> here. I'm outnumbered and will surely get trounced by those with

more

>> >>> time (and by those much wordier then I) to make their case.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm also thankful *I* am the one deciding what I watch, and not
>> >>> someone who thinks *they* know what's good or bad.
>> >>> If it's offensive don't watch.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>> Erik
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>
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