I am in total agreement with Sam in this perspective
for instance, I have some autographs that cost me beaucoup dollars
that became suspect after my purchase (or trades) with someone who
turned out to be not what he said he was.
I showed them to a pro who said he thinks some are authentic and
others are not (The more expensive ones are apparent forgeries, so
it's easy to see what the scam was). They sit in a folder in my vault
- all o fthem - and I have no intention of selling them. I may even
destroy them so they cannot be sold by my estate someday. We're
talking about maybe $15,000 in value. The fellow who looked at them
for me was shocked when I told him I wouldn't be selling them. He
explained that normally when he "de-authenticates" (in his unpaid
opinion) the owners almost always continue to try to recoup their
monies from unknowing buyers. I have no such intentions. However,
before I destroy them, I plan on sending them to noted authenticators
for their opinions (paid opinions I'm sure). If ultimately they are
garbage, they will be treated as such.
Dave is my friend, but sometimes David, I don't get you. If the
Vertigo poster is faded, why argue about it?? Same goes for
apparently suspect bootlegs. If you even have to question the facts,
then the poster is hinky. If later it proves to be authentic - you
have shown your quality by refusing to sell the product, and now your
reputation would be solidified by your refusal to profit until there
is proof positive of authenticity.
There have been bootlegs in posters for decades. The first bootlegs I
ever saw were Hard Day's Night lobby card sets almost 30 years ago.
Those were the ones where the pinholes were reproduced. They may have
been printed for sale as repros, but some people sold them as
originals be it by intent or lack of knowledge. Woodtsock posters
were also bootlegged back then and seeing as I used to sell R&R
posters at R&R conventions, I never touched those either (I did sell
over 3000 original Fillmore and Family Dog posters over those years).
I don't find it unlikely these posters were produced after the fact,
and may have sat in storage for 30 years in someone's attic,
basement, garage or where ever. But regardless of that, the facts
that we do have - very very many available, from one source etc - I
would not trust them and ultimately, the money that I could make
isn't worth the hushed whispers that I might be selling a bootleg.
If I get offered any of these, they're going on the same shelf as the
Star Wars bootlegs. If the day comes they are found authentic.. sell
them I will.. Chances are that day will never come
Rich
At 11:26 AM 11/30/2009, Posteritati wrote:
I recently returned one of these to a very reputable Ebay seller and
my two cents in this debate is that I would never consider selling
something that I was not sure was authentic. The questions
surrounding it are enough to walk away (even if the seller did not
take it back).
I think every honest and reputable dealer has that obligation. I
have a tube with other suspect items (including two minty white
ENFORCER inserts) that I am not interested in selling. At the end of
the day, we only have our reputation and one (or a few) posters are
not worth that risk.
Regards,
sam sarowitz
Posteritati
239 Centre Street
New York, NY 10013
212-226-2207/ Fax: 212-226-2102
<http://www.posteritati.com>http://www.posteritati.com/
On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Bruce Hershenson wrote:
Aside from whether these are real or fake, there is also the issue
of just how many this guy has. He has sold them all over the place,
but seems to keep coming up with more. If he had 20 or 30 of them
he would have sold them all to one person and been done with it. He
may well have hundreds of these, even if they ARE authentic.
So this is one poster where you surely can't say, "Years can go by
without one of these coming up for sale"!
Also, the vast majority of posters where I say, "We have never seen
this particular style one sheet before!" is a poster that is
consistent with those of that year. But this one is not, as it is
rolled. You write "rolled yes....a red flag certainly.....but not
unheard of especially if it was a giveaway".
So if it is a "giveaway", then it certainly is not "theater-used" as well.
If you want truth in advertising, say it is likely a giveaway from
an unknown date. Then if you sell it, the buyer has nothing to
complain about. Especially because he is sure to see it over and
over and over again in the next few months and years.
This reminds me of the "pink" Doc Octopus Spider Man posters a guy
was selling on eBay. He ASSURED everyone he had received them at
the ComiCon, and that they had given away pink and red ones, and
that anyone who preferred a red one could trade the pink one in to
him, which bought him more time to sell more of them. Trouble was
he disappeared soon after he sold his supply of pink bootlegs,
never to be heard from again.
Offer this Woodstock poster for sale if you want, but it is never
going to sell for much, given its murky origins, and its huge supply.
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:03 AM, David Lieberman
<<mailto:dli...@aol.com>dli...@aol.com> wrote:
This "everything is fake lately" hysteria is just ridiculous. The
conspiracy theorists are alive and well!!
(not aimed at you Freeman or Kirby!!)
reasons we believe they are authentic.....given the evidence
presented so far.
1. full size 27x41
2. right kind of paper consistent with the era....thin stock,
glossy/semi gloss front with matte back.
3. LPIU printer union logo.
4. L hash marks on the corners.
5. Some of them have light foxing.....signs of age (so we've been
told by a mopo dealer who has a few).....so they are definitely old
unless someone faked foxing on a few of them.
6. Print quality is far from perfect.....which suggests
authenticity........not repro. If someone were creating a
bootleg/fake for resale they would undoubtedly fix the minor
printing defects this has.
7. expert opinions from 3 other dealers who have actually handled
them (admittedly, they like to stay out of the fray and remain anonymous).
8. I've been told that the source these came from had just a few
other titles from that same time period (unconfirmed).
9. If anyone was trying to create a poster to commemorate and
capitalize on the 40th anniversary.....it certainly wouldn't be a
poster like this.......one that has (see points 1 through 6 above)
rolled yes....a red flag certainly.....but not unheard of
especially if it was a giveaway.
Freeman says there really were no giveaways back
then..........well, this I can't really explain...I also can't
explain why this particular one sheet (see below how it differs)
never seems to have surfaced before until recently. But if you
think about it.....how many times have we read in one of Bruce's
auctions "We have never seen this particular style one sheet
before!" or something to that effect. He doesn't say it
often.......but he has said it before.
And could it be a commercial poster from spencers, suncoast, etc?
Well anything is possible but again it just doesn't seem/feel like
a commercial poster.
again, here is a closeup of the one we have:
<http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aapics09/woodoct09.jpg>http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aapics09/woodoct09.jpg
many coming to light all from the same source.....a bit of a red
flag yes....but totally plausible they were tucked away all these years.
it is highly unlikely someone just all of a sudden decided to
bootleg this poster....one that is far from being in "high demand".
look at the bottom of this poster.......it has completely different
and more info. than pictures of other woodstock style c one sheets.
The two that heritage has sold are different.....one of them is
completely blank at the bottom (a rolled wilding poster), and the
other is folded...theater issued but with no nss info..... And
there are NO credits....blank on the bottom except for the
copyright line, the printer union logo, and where it says C style.
This one we are selling has full credits. It even gives credit to
magnum photos inc. and to the photographers on the bottom right.
What does that mean? Is that significant? is this a clue?
So where did the supposed bootlegger copy this poster from?? Did he
just create the credits??
We only have one by the way......and it is on consignment. I don't
expect it to sell....but we have been pleasantly surprised before
with this title so we agreed to give it a shot.
And rick please get your facts straight....we have NEVER had a
rolled cool hand luke one sheet. Never claimed to have one. We did
have 1000's of rolled posters from 68-72...but sadly cool hand luke
wasn't one of them....and we still have hundreds of obscure titles
from this find that are rolled near mint that no one would ever
want (well, no one except Rich H as we sent him several a few years
ago)...... We have sold several of these rolled one sheets to
dozens of mopo members......and not one of them has ever suggested
they weren't authentic. Only you. Someone who hasn't even seen one
in person.........someone who can't even tell a fake rolled Friday
the 13th from a real one.
so much petty jealousy in this hobby!!
again.....I am more than open to pulling it at the drop of a hat. I
just think that it looks and feels real so I'm going with my instinct.
If anyone else has anything to add.....just let me know!
----------------------------------------
Hey, Dave,
I'm not alone. Guys like Bruce were there, too. I think you're
single-handedly attempting to create your own "movie poster
reality" in insisting that these obvious reproductions are
authentic. It's far more plausible that they're repros than they
suddenly appeared out of nowhere after 40 years. It would be
different if we were only dealing with the Woodstock one
sheets----but we're not. It seems like over the past two or three
years you've had more explanations for the appearance of rolled
one sheets from the 60's---first Cool Hand Luke, then a dozen
other titles. If you proclaim their authentic long enough, people
will believe what you're saying is true---with one lame
explanation after another for their appearance out of nowhere. I
can't believe being the respected dealer that you are---the pride
of eBay---that you wouldn't wait until you were ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN
of a poster's authenticity--to offer it to your trusting
clientele. Sure, you say you'll refund every buyer's money if the
posters are ultimately found to be reproductions. But tell me,
Dave, who's keeping track? You're certainly keeping track of all
the money your stuffing into your pockets in the meantime, aren't you.......
----------------------------------------------------
David Lieberman
<http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/>CineMasterpieces.com | 15721 N.
Greenway Hayden Loop, Suite 105 -- Scottsdale, Az 85260
Vintage Original Movie Posters | 602 309 0500 | Office/Gallery Open
By Appt. Only.
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