Grey,
"I hear some say, "Oh, I can't touch it so I wouldn't want it!" Do you
not have a pair of scissors? Cut the card out of the slab and frame it
with the saved grading label put on the back of the frame! You know what
you have bought!! If you go to sell it, either the potential buyer or
seller could have it re-graded."
Hmmm... If we make a big leap of faith and accept that CGC can detect
the kind of high-end fakes associated with the Haggard Affair (that's a
very big leap) you could still have this scenario: Con Man gets a
genuine card slabbed. Con Man has one or more quality fakes of the same
card. Con Man takes the seal and other documentation from the slabbed
original and puts them with the fake, giving it a provenance, and sells it.
Then Con Man can do the whole thing over again.
"On one other note, I see where there is concern that if something is
bought and the graders have missed a "forged" card, what sort of
recourse is there? First of all you must believe that CGC has been fully
appraised and is aware of the forgeries and yes, they do stand behind
what they grade, financially. It is called a guarantee."
But to take them up on the guarantee you would have to break the seal
and have the card examined by another expert -- only then could it be
known if something slipped by CGC. How many collectors are going to
actually do that? How many cases have there been where someone broke the
slab and discovered a significant mistake was made and tried to make
good on the guarantee? I can't recall ever hearing of one.
I understand (and have advocated) the need to do something about better
authentication for expensive posters -- I just don't see slabbing as
the way to do it. Putting the paper beyond the *practical* ability of
the buyer and experts to physically touch and examine it strikes me as
potentially very dangerous. Besides, it's not a viable approach for
anything larger than lobby cards, anyway.
-- JR
Smith, Grey - 1367 wrote:
Thank you, Cory, for a voice of reason.
This is a small hobby and for it to grow or that matter for any hobby,
business, or enterprise of any nature, often one must try to embrace
or at least realize that there will be change. To try to ignore these
changes is like living in 1980 and believing the personal computer
couldn't be good for much unless you were an accountant! I cannot
help but believe many young people would love to be involved in this
wonderful hobby, yet there is such a strong contingent of "older"
people in this field that perhaps they feel intimidated by or believe
that unless they know more they would never be accepted. And I include
myself in that older group! This will help give the newer buyers more
confidence and will inevitably bring more material and buyers into
the market.
How can there be a damaging effect by removing the owner from the
grading of a lobby and turning it over to an accredited group who have
no financial gain in how a card grades, hurt anyone but perhaps the
seller wanting to pass off a lesser card?
Confidence is what we are addressing here. I am not sure how many have
bought a poster that was not graded as they felt was fair, but I dare
say, a large percentage of buyers. At Heritage we have constantly
tried to improve our grading and in contrast to what some of our
competitors will claim, we very rarely get any complaint or return for
grade or quality, I am proud to say. Now, bear in mind that so much of
what is bought in posters is now purchased over the internet and a
buyer is going by an image online only! I cannot help but believe
that by taking the grading out of the seller's hands where lobby cards
are concerned and putting them in the hands of a company that is
highly qualified in the grading fields, who has nothing to gain but
the cost of grading and has been in that field for comics for over ten
years and in the other hobbies for, I believe, over 23 years, will
bring a great lot of credibility to this hobby.
I hear some say, "Oh, I can't touch it so I wouldn't want it!" Do you
not have a pair of scissors? Cut the card out of the slab and frame it
with the saved grading label put on the back of the frame! You know
what you have bought!! If you go to sell it, either the potential
buyer or seller could have it re-graded.
On one other note, I see where there is concern that if something is
bought and the graders have missed a "forged" card, what sort of
recourse is there? First of all you must believe that CGC has been
fully appraised and is aware of the forgeries and yes, they do stand
behind what they grade, financially. It is called a guarantee.
*From:* MoPo List [mailto:mop...@listserv.american.edu] *On Behalf Of
*Cory Glaberson
*Sent:* Thursday, July 01, 2010 7:50 AM
*To:* MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage
The point of slabbing is exactly as Bruce writes - its designed to
assure people new to the hobby that the cards are real and graded
properly. These new collectors don't know Bruce or Rich, don't know
how to grade lobby cards and don't know who to trust. But they still
are interested in collecting and investing. CGC has been around long
enough in enough different hobbies to maintain credibility.
These new collectors might be speculators and might drive up prices to
amazing levels - but I am having a hard time thinking that's a bad
thing. So slabbing will bring in more customers, some of who might
actually become real collectors, drive up prices on the better
material and make the dealers more money and the worth of collections
higher. What's the objection?
If it works out like it did in comics - it actually DROPPED the prices
of lesser material. Only the very top pieces maintained the huge
"overguide" prices.
It does mean that the people who now are at the top of the hobby will
have to adjust to the new reality and that means winners and losers.
It will complicate bragging rights as well. A Collector will have a
killer card, but these newbies won't be impressed until its slabbed
and graded professionally. But its a good thing to shake up move
memorabila collecting once in a while (in a good not the Haggard way).
Adrian on the other hand does have a point - can these comic book guys
be trusted to grade lobby cards? Some of my friends say absolutely
not. The CGC guys will get it spectacularly wrong in the beginning,
but after a while they conqueror the learning curve. Then slabbing
will take off even with established collectors when they see their
best stuff triple or quadruple in value.
Cory
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hershenson <brucehershen...@gmail.com>
To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:15 am
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage
I too hate slabbing, especially on comic books where it makes them
unreadable. Why not start slabbing particularly fine examples of food,
so it will become un-eatable?
But here is how it will likely go:
An unnamed auction house or two will start auctioning more and more of
these monstrosities. They will auction for two to ten times the
regular prices (we will never see the high bidders, so we won't know
if the results are real, or if it is a house bidder "buying" from
themselves).
But people will want in on this "free money". and they will start
submitting their own lobbies to be slabbed, and for a while they will
get great results, and that will encourage them to slab lots more, and
others will start doing the same.
Then an unnamed dealer will have an "all-slabbed" auction on eBay, and
the results will be amazing, and everyone will start to sing the
praises of slabbing (except for a few old fogies like me, Phil
Edwards, Rich Halegua, and others) and we will quit selling lobbies
altogether, and they will be purchased by the same investors who have
overrun other hobbies, and before too much longer a lot of the new
"collectors" will say, "I only buy slabbed lobbies, because I KNOW
what I am getting", as if buying an item that some paid employee
looked at for a minute is more trustworthy than buying an item from a
dealer who has collected and bought and sold lobbies for 20 or 30 years!
At least that's how it played out in comic books, baseball cards, and
coins.
Some questions:
1) WHO owns the grading service who slabs these (and if a major
auction owns even a small percentage of them, then isn't that a
massive conflict of interest)?
2) Every top dealer (except for one) has admitted they would have been
fooled by the Haggard fakes, and in fact most were, and a leading
restorer was fooled by a recreation of an ultra-expensive one-sheet.
Isn't that proof that the last thing we need is some new people being
paid to authenticate and grade lobby cards?
3) In other hobbies (comic books, baseball cards, and coins), slabbing
has siphoned millions of dollars out of collector's hands, and has
driven out lots of the collectors who have a love of the items, and
brought in a lot of "investor" types, and has created a "bubble" in
prices not unlike that seen in the stock market or real estate
markets. Is that what we want for our hobby?
Bruce
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Phil Edwards <p...@cinemarts.com
<mailto:p...@cinemarts.com>> wrote:
I would never bid on a slabbed anything.
The reasons are painfully obvious, aren't they?
Phil E.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* JOHN REID Vintage Movie Memorabilia
<mailto:johnr...@moviemem.com>
*To:* MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
<mailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
*Sent:* Thursday, July 01, 2010 1:03 PM
*Subject:* [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage
I have been browsing through the latest Heritage catalogue and
once again it is very impressive. One thing that will be of
interest to many is that amount of "slabbed" lobby cards that
appear in this auction. A great many look to be sealed in some
sort of plastic with a grading by CGC whoever they may be.
I have never been too keen on the idea of slabbed lobby cards and
wonder what you guys think about them. My concerns are:
* Slabbing and grading the cards would add to the overall
cost of the cards and surely it would be hardly worthwhile
on lobby cards of medium value - say $200.00
* What materials are used when slabbing the cards? Is the
plastic and materials used to slab the card acid free, uv
protected, etc?
* It looks as though the plastic may be flexible ie it could
be bent or creased. Does slabbing protect the card from any
damage?
* How does slabbing affect framing?
* What happens if sunlight affects the card?
* If damage occurrs whilst the card is slabbed can the card be
regraded?
* How will this "trend" affect lobby cards that have not been
slabbed?
* Will the value of lobby cards be increased or decreased by
slabbing? I know that some collectors will prefer to have
the card in its original state and will avoid purchasing
cards that have been slabbed. No doubt, there will be others
who will like the idea.
Regards
John
Website: www.moviemem.com <http://www.moviemem.com>
JOHN REID VINTAGE MOVIE MEMORABILIA
PO Box 92
Palm Beach
Qld 4221
Australia
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
<http://www.filmfan.com>
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