In the rare instances I'm aware of where a trespass notice was issued in writing, the recipient didn't return.
Rather than escalating this kind of situation where the recipient wouldn't respect such a notice into the legal system through a primarily policy-based approach, it might be worth engaging the assistance of someone skilled in de-escalating conflict. For instance, taking a page from the nightclubs' playbook and hiring an off-duty police officer to work at the welcome table for a few dances would have the benefit of someone present on-site who would presumably have some previous experience handling that sort of thing in the moment. Peter On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Orin Nisenson <[email protected]> wrote: > The reason I suggested a contract is that it lays down the paper trail > that may be needed if any legal action is taken. > > I agree that you can not cover all bad behaviors but you can cover the > basics that are expected of all dancers. > > If you look at the back of tickets for many sporting and theater event > there is some sort of contract language. This gives the organizers some > form of legal rights to act. I am not suggestion that that become the > practice in the contra dance world. Contracts should be reserved for those > who fail to respond to legitimate complaints/concerns of improper behavior. > Of course the definition of improper behavior is a whole different can of > worms (no offence to worms meant). > > This person has been spoken to by many people many different times. I > doubt he would stop coming to a dance just because someone told him he was > banned. He just does not listen to what he does not want to hear. It may be > time for legal action. > > Orin > > > > > > I agree with Jeff. We are a national community (in some ways, at least), >> and we owe it to the dancers we serve to make our spaces safe for >> everybody. Maybe, if a newcomer is making people uncomfortable, talking >> to >> that newcomer might change his behavior. But that's not your situation. >> If Josh has been harassing and sometimes hurting women for more than five >> years, despite being talked to consistently by many dance organizers, then >> assuming that the same talking-to is going to have any effect just doesn't >> make much sense. >> >> I disagree with Orin's approach. No matter how tight you make a written >> contract, you won't be able to include every single possibly bad behavior. >> And some behaviors (like leering) are too hard to define with any >> precision. Consulting a lawyer might be good advice, but keep in mind >> that >> you always have the right to expel somebody from your dance. People get >> expelled from "public" events that require an admission fee all the time >> for breaking norms; look at any time somebody jumps on the field during a >> baseball game, or try rushing the stage at a concert, etc. Those events >> are just as public as a contra dance (open to everybody who pays the price >> of admission). >> >> I understand that some people on this list likely have problems with >> naming >> particular problem dancers. I think it's our duty to do so. We owe it to >> dancers to put on a safe event, and trying to hide names of people who >> make >> our dances unsafe detracts from that goal. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Orin Nisenson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I strongly suggest that you consult a lawyer to find out what your >>> options >>> are and to make sure you protect yourself. I would think the law is >>> different for a public dance compared to a private dance/club. >>> >>> I also suggest that you do a written contract with him so that there is >>> no >>> confusion. I once convinced him to stop a particular behavior. The next >>> week he was doing it again. When I reminded him of our conversation the >>> week before he responded "oh, that was for last weeks dance" >>> >> > >> >>> Orin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Oy ... >>> >>>> >>>> First thanks to all for their support and information , both on this >>>> list >>>> and off-list .. I will be following up independently with those that >>>> e-mailed me in the next few days . >>>> >>>> Yes it is the same person that caused so much trouble up in the Boston >>>> area... >>>> We are currently working on outreach to any dancers effected ( At least >>>> those that we can contact and are willing to talk to us about this >>>> sensitive issue) >>>> >>>> So now we are on the horns of an ethical dilemma , or many different >>>> but >>>> related ones .. :-( >>>> >>>> Should this person get the same treatment that someone with no history >>>> of >>>> harassing behavior should reasonably expect to receive ? >>>> Should he be "talked to" about his actions and "given a chance to >>>> change" >>>> ? >>>> Should a "stepped" ban be considered ? ( Say ban for two months now , >>>> and >>>> >>> >> "probation" after ? ) >> >>> Should any consideration be given to our not having had a clearly >>>> written >>>> and posted set of "rules" ? >>>> >>>> Btw we are working on a "policy" now and I have read every dance >>>> organization policy on the subject that I can find . I suspect that >>>> the >>>> object of such rules or policy should be to make the dancers >>>> comfortable ( >>>> new and old ) and provide recourse to the dance community if someone >>>> violates the folkways of the community .. It might be better to >>>> encourage >>>> communication within the more experienced dancers in the community and >>>> get >>>> them to let the new dancers know through words and deeds what is >>>> acceptable >>>> , what is not and how to tell the difference.. >>>> >>>> Thoughts ? >>>> >>>> Rgds Q >>>> >>>> Ps Perry ( our american dance chair ) will be at NEFFA this weekend , >>>> If >>>> anyone has any personal experiences about this problem please let him >>>> know. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While there are things to be said for having a code of conduct (and my >>>> >>>>> organization does have one), >>>>> having one in place is neither necessary nor sufficient for dealing >>>>> with >>>>> this person. >>>>> >>>>> Is it possible to have a comforting female organizer get in touch with >>>>> some of the "disappeared" women >>>>> and discuss what's happened with them? This may help assure them that >>>>> the organization cares >>>>> about their comfort and safety and that of the dancers who continue, >>>>> and >>>>> will also help to establish >>>>> how far over the boundaries his behaviors have gone, which might also >>>>> help you to decide whether >>>>> the guy needs a talking to and careful watching with banning in >>>>> reserve, >>>>> or just immediate banning. >>>>> (Or whether the women not coming back to contra is all an unfortunate >>>>> coincidence.) >>>>> >>>>> -- Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 4/21/2014 1:06 PM, Quintin Aspin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Down here in Baltimore we are having a problem with a dancer who >>>>>> seems to be harassing young ladies , He seems particularly fond of >>>>>> monopolizing their dances if he can , then moves on to sending >>>>>> e-mails and giving small gifts ... Shortly there after these >>>>>> unfortunately targeted newcomers seem to stop coming to the dance ... >>>>>> They do not complain to anyone in charge , they just disappear from >>>>>> the dance community .. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is a situation that I , as president of BFMS , only recently >>>>>> became aware of , but in retrospect it seems to have been happening >>>>>> to some extent since he moved down from the Boston area . >>>>>> If this is a "new" behavior and he is amenable to change I will >>>>>> either talk to him , or suggest the American dance chair has a few >>>>>> words with him ... But if , as I now suspect , he was doing this same >>>>>> behaviors in the Boston area perhaps firmer action might be needed . >>>>>> >>>>>> There was , in fact , a discussion over on the callers list about a >>>>>> dancer in the Boston area that seems eerily reminiscent of the >>>>>> situation here .. >>>>>> >>>>>> If any of the Boston area dance folks know of whom I speak , or if he >>>>>> was banned from any dances up there it would be enormously helpful if >>>>>> you could send me an e-mail with just the first name of the gent in >>>>>> question .... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> You can send it to my regular e-mail ( the one I am >> subscribed to >> >>> this list ) or to be at >>>>>> President ( at ) bfms.org ... >>>>>> >>>>>> A thousand thanks from me and from a lot of dancers who hopefully >>>>>> will not have to find out first hand about which they should be >>>>>> thankful ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Rgds Quintin >>>>>> >>>>>> Ps I have looked at all the contra dance "codes of conduct" I can >>>>>> find and we are having a getting to get one set up here .... >>>>>> Hopefully not shutting the gate after the horse ... etc.. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Organizers mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Organizers mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Organizers mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> U.S. Virgin Islands Snow Plowing Service. >>> Serving St. Croix, St. Thomas & St. John. >>> Fast reliable service, driveways & parking lots / no job >>> too small or large >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Organizers mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> David Casserly >> (cell) 781 258-2761 >> _______________________________________________ >> Organizers mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >> > > > -- > U.S. Virgin Islands Snow Plowing Service. > Serving St. Croix, St. Thomas & St. John. > Fast reliable service, driveways & parking lots / no job > too small or large > _______________________________________________ > Organizers mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers >
