Joel, you obviously put some thought into his response and I very much appreciate the insight. All in all, I feel you make some good points. I did find a couple of things that I want to rebut.
>> Well, as a bystander, I think you've shot a little wide. When you say "bystander", are you referring to yourself of me? If you are referring to me, then I think you are wrong. My ideas and suggestions should stand or fall on their merits -- not whether I attended the online launch party. In fact, the perspective of the uninitiated can, in many cases, prove the most useful. >> Microsoft? Indeed Microsoft, Lotus, Word Perfect, Borland, Oracle and every other major software manufacturer in the world has missed deadlines, stuff happens. I am no stranger to this myself. My point is that every successful software company also spends a serious amount of effort to manage the development process and to communicate with the ultimate beneificiaries of their work. Frankly, based upon the volume and high quality of the MySQL code that I've seen, they must be doing this also. I did not write to criticize them for missing their projected deadline -- my criticism was about my perception that they had failed to communicate adequately with their community about it. >> So they gave you all the details they could. Did they? That was my whole argument. Over the past 6 months I have read no fewer than 10 responses from the team which have, in effect, said "we don't know, quit bugging us." During the same period, they have found time to name the dolphin and get venture funding and write about the booths they are setting up at various trades shows. All of this is important. I strongly support their efforts to be financially successful. I just think that it would be good (and in their economic interest) to more prominently feature news that summarized the development efforts, how they are going, and what the latest thinking is about the timing of milestones. >> are areas where the profit margin is [slim] But all of their more profitable areas are derrived from this one. >> But the analogy does not fit. These guys are cutting new ground. The analogy absolutely fits. They are not cutting new ground! Does their work involve innovation? Absolutely! But they are not building the super-collider or mapping the human genome here. They are writing business software, and that, my friend, is a well-traveled road. >> Otherwise, you'd have gone with Microsoft or Oracle... Actually, you have this backwards. I have been a Microsoft SQL Server developer for years and find it to be an incredibly good tool. I explored MySQL because I like the open source model and I am interested in offering my clients a choice. While I know that many in this group will consider this blastphamous, at this stage, SQL Server is a vastly superior product in many ways. A discussion of why I feel this would require a separate thread all its own, and frankly I am not interested in a pissing match with the MS haters. I use MS products when I feel they are the best solution to my clients business problems. I would like to reccomend and use MySQL in a similar fashion and I feel that when 4.1 is released, I will be able to do so without reservation. I am not so much interested in re-engineering every system I ever wrote to use MySQL. >> [you feel that] since you've spent that money you are entitled Actually, no. My two points are that 1) being free isn't enough, by itself, to make it a good buy -and- 2) their for-pay business model might well benefit from the improved communications I have suggested. >> Have you been working with the alphas and betas, reporting actual bugs, etc.? Have I installed the alphas and played with them? Yes. Have I endeavored to try using them in a production environment? No. The testing you are referring to, I believe, is best suited to users who have existing mysql systems that can be trial-migrated to the new version. I have no such system. Furthermore, the systems that I envision using the product for cannot be developed until a couple of missing (my view) features such as multi-table updates and sub-selects are available. >> the "small" license fee might have been "small" enough to go ahead and pay it Why don't you and everyone else who may read this each send me $1. Its a very small amount, I'm sure you wouldn't even miss it. What? You say that you will not send me a dollar? Why not? Is it because I haven't provided anything of value in exchange? I am in the same boat with MySQL. While thousands of people around the world may find that MySQL is a great fit with their needs (and make no mistake, I think it is a fine product), I have yet to personally come accross a suitable application for it in my work. The product simply is of no use to me, other than academic, until it has the core set of features that my apps require. I am willing to contribute my ideas and feedback because I see the potential of this product and I believe in the open source model. If one finds my contributions lacking on the merits, so be it. But do not assume that they are not made in earnest. >> Pardon me for being blunt, but no money, no testing, where's the beef? No problem on the blunt part... blunt is good. As for the beef, I have over 15 years of software design and development under my belt. I have participated in or led the development of several successful, and perhaps more importantly several unsuccessful, commercial applications. My clients pay for the benefit of my experience. My intent in starting this thread was to offer suggestions that I feel could be helpful. If I shot a little wide, as you put it, then I am sorry. Upon reflection, perhaps I led too strongly with the frustration. The bottom line is this: Richard Morton, responding in this same thread, provided some of the very details that I had sought. Apparently, he got some of this info from the MySQL team and some in posting to this group that I had overlooked. Therefore it is obvious that this information does in fact exist. Why not devote a page on their website to keeping everyone up to date about these same details and update it a couple times a month? This would seem to me to be more effecient for both them and us. Thanks again for your thoughtful response. Will -----Original Message----- From: Joel Rees [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:42 AM To: Will French Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Info on 4.0.x release date I know I'm not really involved here, but I would like to suggest a few things. > Obviously you don't agree with me and that is something I readily accept. I > do have difficulty with the fact that you clearly spent more time typing > your response than considering my points, which were intended to be > constructive. Well, as a bystander, I think you've shot a little wide. > >> You got the truth. Would you prefer someone lie to you about it? > > I will assume that your interest in mysql and participation in this list > indicates that you are somehow involved in the process of software > development. What is less clear is whether this may be a hobby or your > profession. If it is the latter, I would love to know where it is that one > can work in this industry where one is not expected to make projections > about when project milestones might be met. Microsoft? > This is called project > management. And while those of us who simply love writing code find such > pursuits annoying, they are nonetheless necessary and worthwhile -- > accepting this is part of growing up. _All_ the areas where we can reliably set schedules are areas where the profit margin is, well, something like the profit margin for manufacturing pencils. Unless you own the virtual monopoly, in which case you can fill in with fud. > And while I applaud the honesty of > saying "we won't declare it stable until it is stable," surely you can see > your way clear that if you were explaining a similar situation to your boss > or to your client, they would almost certainly (and justifyably) want you to > give them more details. This is called accountability. So they gave you all the details they could. That is being accountable. Or did you want to see the list of remaining issues, the assignment list for who gets to cover each, and so forth? > >> What more information would be helpful, exactly? Do guesses really > >> help? > > Guesses are nice... estimates are better. What is the difference, you ask? > The word guess connotes random selection or selection based upon whimsy. > Estimates, on the other hand, are approximations based upon some rational > methodology. Whimsy, or the cognizance of the existance of more unknowns and their limits on manpower? > Suppose you take your car into the shop and after looking at > it they inform you that it cannot be driven again until a new part is > installed and that part will need to be special ordered. Would you not > expect them to give you an estimate of how long that will take? Following > your logic, they would be justified in telling you that "it will be here > when it gets here." Perhaps you would feel better if they said something > like "the computer says they have plenty in stock and it usually takes 1-2 > days for shipments to arrive." In the later, the parts manager cannot say > with absolute certainty when the part will arrive. But short of that > certainty, he has given you the next best thing - his best estimate based > upon a methodology (based upon past history and his experience). Using the manufacturing analogy, what happens when the special order part is not being manufactured any more (because of, say, an earthquake), or has been recalled? But the analogy does not fit. These guys are cutting new ground. If we want to get a real fit on the analogy, we have to turn the clock back a hundred years. There are no factories that we can just order parts from. There are the big guys, but you're not asking for the Model T in black. (Otherwise, you'd have gone with Microsoft or Oracle, wouldn't you?) Since you didn't go to Microsoft or Oracle, we can only assume that you don't want the standard model. The folks at MySQL are developing something that apparently looks close to what you want, so you chose to go with them, based on their previous estimates. Well, they are designing it, inventing parts as they go, and rushing it to the factory floor as fast as they can. Except for one thing, they are trying to avoid the sort of situations that lead to recalls. And yes that means they uncover unknowns as they go, and most unknowns push the schedule back a bit. > >> But that money isn't paid *to* MySQL AB, so how is that relevant? Which was a response to your assertions that the time and planning that you've put into the design based on the dev version of MySQL are real money, and the concept that since you've spent that money you are entitled to "estimates", even though you have never bought a license. Not incidentally, did you ever consider that the "small" license fee might have been "small" enough to go ahead and pay it? This is where I think you've gone south. Usually, if you spec a product that is under development, you would want to back it with real support. Idea support is useful, but if you are planning on eating by it, I'd say you should have put your money where your mouth was last year. If the fees were so small compared to the money you've sunk into in-house, _why_ weren't you willing to part with such a small sum to go to the company making this important part for your planned project? > Ironically, the fact that I pay no license fees to MySQL AB is based upon > the fact that I have no production systems that use it and I will not have > production systems that use it until the new functionality coming in 4.1 is > available. Have you been working with the alphas and betas, reporting actual bugs, etc.? I have the impression from what I've read that you have not. > But the fact that I have not paid any money to MySQL AB does not > mean that I am not doing things which ultimately improve their bottom line. > Though this is my first posting in a while, there was about a three month > period when I monitored this list every day and often contributed my > knowledge when I thought it could be helpful. I have talked up MySQL to my > colleagues. I have suggested ideas for new features. I certainly do not > feel anyone need give me a medal for any of this, but my point is that by > being yet another active member of the MySQL community, I (with those like > me) help advance the product which will inevitably lead to more sales for > MySQL AB. And I am still wondering. Did you actually get the alphas and betas into your shop and start working with them? What they seem to need most right now is testers. Have you been helping them on that end? Pardon me for being blunt, but no money, no testing, where's the beef? If you have been testing, then pardon me for a mistaken assumption. But your posts don't read that way. > My point that licenses are but a small part of total cost is relevant in the > sense that just being free isn't good enough to close the deal. Everytime I > read one of the smartass responses, I wonder to myself if they feel they can > get away with this attitude simply because they are not charging license > fees. I have seen no smartass responses from MySQL AB. I have seen some evidence of frustration, but that is a far cry from smartass. I have also seen a lot of acknowledgement of reality. What exactly is smartass about that? > Maybe this is wrong, It most certainly is. > I hope so, but I think that they would be well > served by if the took more seriously the concerns of their user community > (paying and non-paying) because I believe that it will in the end enhance > their success. It looks to me like MySQL AB takes their product and their customers very seriously. If you want a look at the user mailing lists of other serious open source software, hope over here: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/ A few I recommend for enlightenment: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=postgresql-general&r=1&w=2 (Some people see MySQL and PostgreSQL as competitors. I've heard from many who use both as complementary tools.) http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-user&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-user&r=1&w=2 Welcome to open source. It's a viable model. But it is not the conventional model by any means. (I think it's significantly more realistic business model, myself, but that's probably just me.) -- Joel Rees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ============================================================================== NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. 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