From: Jim <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: NEOTEK: Adding Transformers
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2011, 11:01 AM
Greetings,
Hi Matt,
Great point.............I wasn't sure how much to write (or not). Please
feel free to contribute anything else that comes to mind.
Regards, Jim
At 05:53 AM 3/24/2011, you wrote:
> Hi
> When simply adding a transformer on an output you need also to
consider the output capacitor, assuming the circuit uses them which many do.
> This will cause a series resonant circuit with the transformer and it
it possible this resonance happens in the audio band, or nearby. High
impedance 'line in' transformers of remote connected gear suffer less
but it is quite easy to get a 3dB or more 'boost' at some frequency.
Increasing the output capacitor WAY beyond usual values usually 'cures'
this. Values in excess of 1000 uF may be necessary.
> I had this discussion a while back with a guy using a 600 Ohm 1:1
transformer (Sowter but the principle is valid for any similar types)
and with a 47uF cap (as used in the suggested circuit) it gave a 4dB
boost at about 20Hz, hardly an accurate response. (I can't remember the
exact values now but it is an example). Gratifyingly doubling the cap
halved the boost frequency, as 'laws' predict.
> Matt S
>
> On 23/03/2011 23:35, Jim wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> Sorry I didn't explain this..............I had posted about
transformers previously and assumed you saw that. Please keep in mind
that entire books have been written on these topics. Anway, to maintain
its rated frequency response a transformer requires some specific
secondary termination, usually an R, sometimes an RC. In many cases this
is achieved by the input Z of the component that its feeding. Without
going into too much detail and history, back in the "old days"
equipment was designed to a standard 600 Ohm line (matching load); all
inputs and outputs were "matched" so that anything could be connected to
anything else and it would all work out just fine.
>>
>> Since we've pretty much abandoned that approach, we run into the
situations of non-matching loads; which can adversely affect both
frequency response and the optimum transfer of voltage/power/etc.. Now
we tend to think in terms of bridging loads; which is to say that the
optimal situation would be an output impedance of zero feeding an
infinite input impedance. Of course in the real world that situation
does not exist. In general, we'll figure the output Z is pretty low (a
few Ohms) and the input Z is high (say at least 1K Ohms). If you have a
scenario where the ratio is on the order of 1:1000 or greater, things
can work out pretty well. The problem comes when the output Z is high
and the input Z is low. The most common example of this is plugging a
bass guitar (with passive pick ups) directly into a console. The
relatively high output Z of the pick up is severely loaded down by the
relatively low input Z of the console. That's why we usually would use
some type of direct box that matched the correct loading for the pick
up; for example plug the same bass into an old tube bass guitar amp. Its
going to sound much better. Typical input Z will be over 1MR, sometimes
up over 5MR.
>>
>> Now lets look at your specific situation. The UTC is likely rated to
drive into a 600R load (see if you can find the data sheet for it; there
may be several ways to strap the input and output side for some other
combinations; 150R, 300R, etc.). The actual load will be determined by
what the input Z of the device it is feeding. Say for example, it's
feeding a solid state line level input device. That may have an input Z
of between 1K and 10K; feeding a tube line level device may have an
input Z of over 100K. So in either case a bridging load is in effect,
but at pretty different ratios. Hook the transformer up "as is" or with
the strapping set for 600:600. Then after you have measured/listened,
etc. try installing a resistor in parallel with the transformer
secondary; for example, try a 500R pot with just one end and the wiper
connected. That puts the resistor in parallel with the input Z of the
loading device, and will result in dropping the Z the output transformer
sees. This will likely result in lower output level, but the interesting
part is how it may affect the frequency response. So, this allows you to
"tune" the circuit to perhaps achieve a beneficial effect. You don't
have to limit yourself to the value I gave; try whatever you have;
listen and let your ears be the judge.
>>
>> OK, hope that helps and that I didn't make too many errors. Just
coming off the flu myself. Good luck!
>>
>> Regards, Jim
>>
>>
>> At 01:22 PM 3/23/2011, you wrote:
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> What do you mean exactly? Try using the different impedance taps on
the UTC's? Sorry, but I think I might be on the verge of a nasty cold!
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 3/23/11, Jim
<mailto:[email protected]><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Jim <mailto:[email protected]><[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: NEOTEK: Adding Transformers
>>> To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
>>> Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 12:10 PM
>>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> After you get the project built up and do some testing, if you have time
>>> mess around with the secondary terminations. I'd be very interested
to find
>>> out what happens.
>>>
>>> Regards, Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 12:40 PM 3/23/2011, you wrote:
>>> >I received a couple UTC A20's and should have my Edcor's in tomorrow. I
>>> >should have the chassis made and wired by late weekend. I am very
curious
>>> >to hear the differences and see if they are very noticable.
Regardless, it
>>> >will be a fun project.
>>> >
>>> >Tom
>>> >
>>> >--- On Wed, 3/16/11, Brian Roth
<<<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>[email protected]>
wrote:
>>> >
>>> >From: Brian Roth
<<<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>[email protected]>
>>> >Subject: Re: NEOTEK: Adding Transformers
>>> >To:
<<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>[email protected]
>>> >Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 10:11 PM
>>> >
>>> >On 3/16/2011 13:02, Ike Zimbel wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Hi Brian,
>>> > > I'm pretty sure you published those specs on the Ampex
list...check the
>>> > > archive!
>>> > > All the best,
>>> > > Ike
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Dear Ike,
>>> >
>>> >I forgot I had posted some measurements on the Ampex list! I found the
>>> >following from the Jan, 2005 archives, which I believe were
measurements
>>> >of the "smaller" series of Edcors:
>>> >
>>> ><<<http://www.edcorusa.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx>http://www.e
dcorusa.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx>http://www.edcor us
a.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx><<http://www.edcorusa.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx>http://www.edcorusa.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx>http://www.edcorusa.com/products/143-wsm600-600.aspx
>>> >
>>> >Here is what I wrote 6 (!) years ago:
>>> >
>>> >The replacement Edcors (600:600 impedance versions) arrived today,
and the
>>> >DCR was MUCH more reasonable. Approx. 54.1 Ohms primary, 54.5
>>> >secondary. Level drop from open loading on secondary to 600 Ohms
was just
>>> >a bit under 1.5 dB, much what I would expect.
>>> >
>>> >For testing, I breadboarded a "zero Ohm source" driver with a 5534
opamp
>>> >running as an inverter: 10K input and feedback R's, 22 pF
compensation cap
>>> >(between pins 5 and 8) and 22 pF in parallel
>>> >with the feedback R to tame any overshoot and ringing from the opamp
>>> >itself. -3 dB response with the opamp circuit calcs to around 723
kHz. I
>>> >powered the 5534 with +/- 20 VDC from my bench
>>> >supply, which allowed just over approx + 24 dBu/m at clipping.
>>> >
>>> >1 and 10 kHz squarewave response through the iron looked very good,
loaded
>>> >or unloaded, with just a tiny bit of overshoot and ringing. Frequency
>>> >response was beyond anything I could measure with my
>>> >Amber (bandlimited at around 500 kHz or so) which came up with -1 dB at
>>> >approx 6 Hz and 300 kHz. Bypassing the Amber and just watching the
scope,
>>> >usuable response was extended, and limited by the
>>> >rolloff of the opamp driver on the top end. With a 50 Hz square wave,
>>> >there was very little tilt which indicates LF response well below
20 Hz.
>>> >
>>> >Next I measured THD, and at some of the lower levels I was fighting
noise
>>> >picked up from the breadboarding! Here are various "spot
measurements".
>>> >
>>> >1 kHz, 0 dBm = 0.0085% +10 dBm = 0.005% +20 dBm =
0.0025% (noise was
>>> >an obvious factor!)
>>> >
>>> >100 Hz, 0 dBm = 0.03% +10 dBm = 0.015% + 20 dBm = 0.05% **
>>> >
>>> >50 Hz, 0 dBm = 0.055% +10 dBm = 0.035% +20 dBm = 0.18% **
>>> >
>>> >20 Hz, 0 dBm = 0.07% +10 dBm = 0.085% + 20 dBm = 0.7%
>>> >
>>> >Spot checks at LF and + 20 dBm: 40 Hz = 0.3% 30 Hz = 0.45%
>>> >
>>> >(Actual 20 Hz numbers may be a bit lower since my 20+ year old
Amber was
>>> >having a hard time nulling at 20 Hz).
>>> >
>>> >** Notice the THD dip at the "middle" levels at those frequencies. I
>>> >also think I detected a THD rise at levels below 0 dBm but was fighting
>>> >noise issues.
>>> >
>>> >I have a bunch of other numbers, but you get the drift. Looking at
Jensen
>>> >choices, this Edcor is just a bit "rattier" than a JT-11-EMCF which
sells
>>> >for $66.85. These Edcors are a bargain!!
>>> >
>>> >Bri
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >------
>>> >
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