What would Marxist answer to those who like Berkley do argue against the existence of Matter in the struggles ?
Le ven. 2 nov. 2018 à 6:08 PM, Alexander Bard <bardiss...@gmail.com> a écrit : > Dear Alice > > If you refer to what I wrote, then please let me correct you. I never said > that gender is a social ghost. I said that race is a social ghost. There is > no such thing as race outside of bigoted people's limited imagination. Skin > color makes us no different from one another than hair or eye color. Which > is why all forms of racism are invalid. Prejudices are best fought with > empowerment and facts, not with infinite (self)victimization. Call the > prejudiced out on their ignorance, not on some kind of banal moralism. > Gender exists ontically and not just ontologically. As does androgynity > between the genders. And all three categories serve excellent and equally > important roles in the community. I'm a radical egalitarian for good and > sold scientific reasons. Tribal mapping theory even includes a forth > category labeled "the shamanic caste" for added tribal queerness, the > go-betweens of all genders that walk between tribes. There you go, pretty > much all people included in that model, my favorite model for future > socialism. > However class beats everything else when it comes to political struggle. I > just read and found out both Slavoj Zizek and Alain Badiou agree strongly > with me on this note. Not that namedropping is an argument, just another > example of how there is a major backlash brewing against identitarianism's > claim toward becoming the core of the left. I firmly believe such a > Rousseauian turn would be a devastating mistake. Back to Marx, please! > Best to fight sexism and racism (of all kinds) through facts and > empowerment. Subordinated to that one factor that overdetermines the social > arena as a whole, the good old well-performed class analysis. > With violence too if needed. You're certainly not going to find people > like me among the passive-aggressive trolls in the pacifism camp. > > Best intentions and I believe over and out for now > Alexander > > Den fre 2 nov. 2018 kl 17:52 skrev Alice Yang <alice.lan.y...@gmail.com>: > >> Trust me, race and gender are not social ghosts. They have extremely >> material consequences. >> >> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 12:48 AM Alexander Bard <bardiss...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Dear Justin >>> >>> Was Karl Marx an idealist or a materialist? I'm perfectly happy to leave >>> that for you and others to decide. Because I'm a pragmatist and my ideas >>> are pragmatist and the rest is just wordplay to me. I'm interested in >>> factual truth and in whether something works or does not work. I'm also >>> interested in opinion being challenged on its own merit. Therefore I >>> radically separate person and opinion. The whole idea that who speaks >>> affects the value of what is being said is just value relativism of the >>> worst kind. I know this is a popular kindergarden game among identitarians >>> of both the extreme right and the extreme left (as if "being seen and >>> heard" must be divided equally among some five-year-olds). Because I can >>> see no other value in this habit than infantile attention-seeking. Which >>> means it is in itself victim-seeking and therefore victimhood-encouraging >>> and certainly not heroic and empowering for anybody. And I can't think of >>> anything less Marxist than that. As I said, identitarianism is Rousseau >>> through and through. How it even sneaked into "The Left" beats me. >>> >>> Everybody should radically be allowed to speak and each argument should >>> be judged on its own merits, not according to who forwards it. That >>> strengthens the overall the debate the most. That is if you're interested >>> in debates having successful and productive outcomes. At least I am. >>> Anything else is just a waste of valuable time. So does race exist? Yes, it >>> does, undeniably, but only as a social ghost. My brother and I had no idea >>> one of us was black and of us was white until we where 14. We had no idea >>> we ought to have cared. Now we can spend our entire lives going on and on >>> about social ghosts and, like David pointed out, end up being the very >>> people who defend and keep the social ghosts the most and the longest. >>> However I find that tragic. I want to move on. And class being firmly tied >>> to capital and power is therefore the factual overarching category under >>> which we can then deal with minor issues like race and gender. Effectively. >>> Now if that is not a materialist argument as much as an activist one, then >>> I don't know what is. If anything is idealist and not materialist it must >>> certainly be the obsession with social ghosts. But sure, the I and the M >>> labels are yours to decide. I could not care less. >>> >>> Best intentions >>> Alexander >>> >>> Den fre 2 nov. 2018 kl 04:00 skrev Justin Charles < >>> justinrobertchar...@gmail.com>: >>> >> Coming in late to this thread but the anti-identity current that's >>>> growing more and more prevalent on the left lately seems to be somewhat in >>>> opposition to contrary to materialism. To say that "class is class and >>>> only class has universal validity" strikes me as pretty idealist, not >>>> materialist. OneWhile race may not exist to Alexander Bard and Candace >>>> Owens, I'd argue that maybe it doesn't exist for them because materially it >>>> need not. Alexander is a white man. Candace Owens, while a black woman, has >>>> a class position that allows her to skip some over much of what it looks >>>> like to be black for most black people, who aren't well-compensated >>>> conservative (or liberal) commentators. Most black people's class position >>>> is deeply intertwined with the color of their skin. I don't think I need to >>>> go into the historical reasons for this. I'd also say that Asad >>>> Haider's book was in no way championing victimhood. If that's what one >>>> takes away from it then they've read an entirely different book than I did. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:05 PM tbyfield <tbyfi...@panix.com> wrote: >>>> >>> Ian, this idea of 'civility' should be unpacked a bit, because the ~word >>>>> lumps together a disparate range of concerns. At its worst, a lot of >>>>> babble about civility boils down to is tone-policing, which relies on >>>>> etiquette as an all-purpose tool for micromanaging rhetoric — and in >>>>> doing so, limiting and even delegitimizing positions of every type >>>>> (subjective, relational, political, whatever). In other contexts — >>>>> notably, in 'centrist' politics in the US — it serves as a rationale >>>>> for institutionalist pliability: 'bipartisan' cooperation, etc. But >>>>> those two uses are very different from its function as a foil for the >>>>> frightening prospect of outright political violence. These different >>>>> strands, or layers if you like, are hopelessly tangled, and that >>>>> confusion in itself has serious consequences — hence the culturalist >>>>> use of the word 'strategy,' which often is used to get at the nebulous >>>>> realm in which individual behavior aligns with (or 'is constitutive >>>>> of') >>>>> abstract, impersonal forces. That's a very roundabout way to get at >>>>> the >>>>> obvious problem, which is the direct way that increasingly uncivil >>>>> political discourse foments violence. And, in a way, that's the >>>>> problem: >>>>> the left's path for translating ideals into political practices is >>>>> hobbled and misdirected at every stage, whereas for the right it's >>>>> becoming all too direct. >>>>> >>>>> My gut sense is that Land is symptomatic of the left's repudiation of >>>>> force — violence — as a legitimate form of politics. Some, like him, >>>>> sense that and embark a theoretical trajectory that tacitly accepts or >>>>> even actively embraces violence. I'll leave that there, because I >>>>> don't >>>>> want to debate it or even to see a debate about it on this list. >>>>> Nettime >>>>> is fragile, and decades of accumulated effort could be poisoned with a >>>>> few, um, 'uncivil' messages. There was a time when the solution was >>>>> widely said to be more speech, but at a time when 'more speech' means >>>>> trollbot networks that systematically and strategically subvert civil >>>>> contexts I think that rule is more problematic than ever. >>>>> >>>>> As for Bard, whenever his mail appears in inbox my first reaction is >>>>> "When's the new book coming out?" But that's a rhetorical question — >>>>> no answer needed, thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Ted >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28 Oct 2018, at 10:48, Ian Alan Paul wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Brett - I don't think that the problem of the Left is that we don't >>>>> > spend >>>>> > enough time with people who think it's worthwhile to discuss the >>>>> > potential >>>>> > virtues of "Candace Owens, Nick Land and/or Adolf Hitler." If >>>>> > anything, the >>>>> > Left needs to thoroughly rid itself of the liberal and depoliticizing >>>>> > notion that we should all simply get along in the name of preserving >>>>> > civility, esp. in a historical moment while fascist gangs are >>>>> > literally >>>>> > roaming the streets beating up migrants, synagogues are being shot >>>>> up, >>>>> > and >>>>> > pipe bombs are being mailed to politicians. >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't think Alexander's ideas are worth engaging with or even >>>>> > refuting to >>>>> > be entirely honest, as I hope is obvious to most people on Nettime >>>>> by >>>>> > this >>>>> > point. We live in times that are too extreme and urgent to expend any >>>>> > attention or energy dialoguing with disingenuous apologists for the >>>>> >>>> > Right .t <http://instagram.com/alicesparklykat> >>>> >>>> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: -- ziboote depuis mon iphoaunesixplus
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