I understand that old init systems have/had limitations and problems. But writing a monolithic blob to solve those is a fatal solution. Ok, Poetter says that the kernel itself is monolithic, so why is it a problem that systemd is too? Facepalm!!! I often recall one of my all time favorite blog posts, which is by Joel Spolsky (founder of Stack Overflow, ex engineer at Microsoft) and is titled "Things you should never do" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/. In that blog post basically he visits the constant temptation of throwing out a codebase and rewriting it from scratch, which essentially arises sooner or later with every codebase larger than a Hello World. But the temptation is getting greater as you pass the 3 year mark. Writing a new code from scratch often gives the false frenzy good feeling that you are typing, vs understanding an existing large codebase is very hard cognitive work and you are mostly not typing code. That truth is highlighted by Joel on Software as "It’s harder to read code than to write it.". Boom!
Many years after systemd got traction I some developers fixed crucial problems in SystemV init. Unfortunately that came too late. Older init systems may still have some issues stemming from architectural choices, but with systemd we ended up having for example binary log files (WTF!), and a too large codebase with lurking security holes. Now it's that blob which could be very well thrown the fuck out and rewritten. I wouldn't shed a tear. But to stick to my stance - no rewrite - maybe an alternative would come around which is better? Very low chance though now that systemd took over every major distributions. It's clinching on the kernel as well, my nightmare is that one day the kernel will be totally dependent on it. It had so many clashes with the kernel developers anyway. All around sad story. On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:52 AM 'Michael Chaney' via NLUG < nlug-talk@googlegroups.com> wrote: > I've been using Unix in one form or another for 30 years now. I > understand init and have done some really low-level work around init. It's > a simple system that works. > > Unfortunately, I also understand its severe limitations with modern > systems and the need to deal with changing hardware at run-time and all > that. > > The main issue with systemd is that it doesn't solve the problem properly > and that's because the wrong people wrote it. Like so many things in the > tech world, though, nobody is properly disgusted with it and motivated > enough to actually write something better as there's not enough mindshare > to go around. (This is the same reason everybody hates facebook yet > everybody still uses it.) If you were going to write a replacement it > would have to be so obviously much better out of the gate that systemd > developers would abandon ship and come over to your side. But systemd is > mostly kind of good enough so getting over that "much better" barrier is > tough. > > This is something that redhat or someone like that should have worked on > years ago. Because they didn't, we ended up with Poettering. > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 12:31 PM Csaba Toth <csaba.toth...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> It is a true tragedy which even Linux users often don't realize and are >> just blissfully ignorant against. And unfortunately by Debian dragging its >> feet to even take a stance which reasonably supports alternatives: all the >> major distributions (so not just the Poetter related RedHat, Fedora, >> CentOS, etc but also all Debian variants like Ubuntu) are doomed to be >> bogged down with this bloatware. Maybe it could have heightened my stance >> if over the years Poetter wouldn't be such a prick any time some bug >> emerges. Bullying kernel developers to budge instead of fixing the >> bloatware. Trying to sweep security vulnerabilities under the rug by >> denying to include CVE numbers and advocate against CVE numbers and >> downplay the importance of it. I gonna puke! >> >> I'm currently using Devuan https://www.devuan.org/ for many years now. >> I'm a developer, and sometimes things are hard, like for example snap is >> dependent on systemd so I have to live without it. I feel like a >> misunderstood freak often times, or like a cult follower. But I just see >> something what even many Linux users don't see. I want to compile a >> presentation about the subject one day. There are very few distributions >> left who try to fight this cancer. >> >> One read: https://artixlinux.org/faq.php >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 7:50 PM Howard White <hwh...@vcch.com> wrote: >> >>> Okay folks, >>> >>> Many of us like to beef about the complexity of systemd and how it has >>> interfered with our lives. I offer this very thoughtful video taking >>> the affirmative argument for systemd. >>> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo> >>> >>> Howard >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "NLUG" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "NLUG" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/a9e8a0bc-18d2-6d3a-4ad5-9ec5c7d88672%40vcch.com >>> . >>> >> -- >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "NLUG" group. >> To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "NLUG" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CA%2BKhHxJxmPtN_NQ7WBypSv0tWcQ6cDtbJm2spi81bCdkt1%2Bfng%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CA%2BKhHxJxmPtN_NQ7WBypSv0tWcQ6cDtbJm2spi81bCdkt1%2Bfng%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > Michael Darrin Chaney, Sr. > mdcha...@michaelchaney.com > http://www.michaelchaney.com/ > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "NLUG" group. > To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "NLUG" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CAAtfUtEkdON_J%2Bn070SKBxJCTBEzPgx_g50uqfEi9yRLbt5PEw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CAAtfUtEkdON_J%2Bn070SKBxJCTBEzPgx_g50uqfEi9yRLbt5PEw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NLUG" group. To post to this group, send email to nlug-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NLUG" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nlug-talk+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CA%2BKhHx%2BtQh2cay3kFyuOj5CmkXe5NvrrC_U-mHqyD9SRJae_ZQ%40mail.gmail.com.
