Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Hello dear "critical edition" scholars !

I do remember who was the French geek on reledmac and reledpar (LaTeX) : he is Maieul Rouquette (please read this page https://github.com/maieul/ledmac).

JP

Le 03/01/2022 à 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :

We (Pablo Rodriguez mainly and I) have tried few years ago to somehow follow a possible path within CTX in order to clarify what was possible with critical edition, which means : 1) a main text with 2) several levels of footnotes showing different version of this text (mainly differences or alterations of the main text, mainly in  words occurences, specially within Medieval copies of the same text). It may be useful to have the original text (say : Ancient Greek or whatever) on the left column, with the translation on the right column (say : Latin or whatever), and the 'criticus apparatus' in the different level of footnotes. This kind of page suppose to have under the hand (zuhandenheit or vorhandenheit ?) some tools/commands in order to deal with the text extension in the column at right ... Pablo has proposed a MWE, but since I made previously a mistake among files I have send to the list, I am going back with a MWE as attached file (I send the *.tex & *.pdf files), produced under mtx-context     | current version: 2020.01.30 (!). I hope this may give some help to those who want to clarify how CTX/LMTX may be useful in such topic.

Dear Bruce and Hans,




were and are:

- footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs

- automatic reference to linenumbers
- or: manual references to verse numbers
- language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

In the last years new requirements have been added:


- data have to be made available in TEI xml format


another problem.


etc.

mumukṣuvyavahāroktimayāt prakaraṇād anu   \danda
athotpattiprakaraṇaṃ mayedaṃ parikathyate  \sloka{1.5}



preamble:

\renewcommand*{\@makefnmark}{}
\newfootnoteseries{P}
\paragraphfootstyle{P}
\renewcommand{\thefootnoteP}{}
\footmarkstyleP{}
\renewcommand{\@makefnmarkP}{\hskip-2.2pt}
\renewcommand{\footnoterule}{}
\setlength{\stockheight}{6in}
\renewcommand{\linenumberfont}{\normalfont\tiny}

\setlength{\footmarkwidth}{0em}
\setlength{\footmarksep}{-\footmarkwidth}
\addtolength{\skip\footins}{2mm plus 1mm}
\leftskip=.2cm            % indent of the verses
\def\var#1#2{\footnoteP{#1 #2}}  % footnotes



edition has produced quite a few volumes and is almost finished!


above), encoded in ekdosis and with lots of manuscripts:

\begin{tlg}[hp16][]
\tl{
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{manthāna}
     \rdg[type=stemmaerror,wit={B2}]{\unm śrīmanthāna} % stemma error
     \rdg[wit={C4,L1,N5}]{manthāra}
     \rdg[wit={N13,Tü,V1,V22,Vu}]{manthāno\skp{-}}
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{mandāra}}%
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{bhairavo}
     \rdg[wit={N20}]{mairavo}
     \rdg[wit={N23}]{bhairavā}
     \rdg[wit={V26}]{bhaivarau}}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{yogī}
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{jogī}
     \rdg[wit={C1}]{siddha}
     \rdg[wit={V5}]{siddhe}
     \rdg[wit={J15,V8}]{yogi}}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}

     \rdg[wit={J15}]{śruddha}
     \rdg[wit={B2,N19,V6}]{siddho\skp{-}}
     \rdg[wit={C1,V5}]{yogī} %s
     \rdg[wit={V1}]{suddha}
     \rdg[wit={J1,J3,J14,N2,N16}]{siddhi}
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{sandhi}
     \rdg[wit={N20}]{viddha}
     \rdg[wit={N22}]{sidha}
     \rdg[wit={N24}]{siddhar\skp{-}}

     \rdg[wit={J2}]{tudhiś ca}
     \rdg[wit={C7}]{pādaś ca}

     \rdg[wit={N22}]{nudhaś ca}
     \rdg[wit={N24}]{cuddhaś ca}
}\skm{ś-ca}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{kanthaḍiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={B1}]{kanthariḥ}
     \rdg[wit={B2,N23}]{kanthaḍīḥ}
     \rdg[wit={C1,C6,J15,N10,N12,N20,N21,V6}]{kanthaḍī}
     \rdg[wit={C3}]{kanthaṭī}
     \rdg[wit={C4ac}]{kukuḍiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={V1,J10pc,N3}]{kanthalī}
     \rdg[wit={J10ac}]{kanhalī}
     \rdg[wit={N5}]{kaṃtharī}
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{kanthaḍi}
     \rdg[wit={J17,N6,N17,N22,V4,V11}]{kandalī} %
     \rdg[wit={V3}]{kanthaḍīṃ}
     \rdg[wit={J1}]{kanthaviḥ}
     \rdg[wit={V8}]{kandali}
     \rdg[wit={N13}]{kaṃpaṭiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={Tü}]{kaṃpaḍiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={M1}]{paddhatiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={V26}]{kānuṭiḥ}
    }/}\\
\tl{
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{pauraṇṭakaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={N22}]{pauraṃṭaka}

     \rdg[wit={B1,N1,N10,V6}]{pauraṇḍakaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={V11}]{pauraṇḍakaṃ }
     \rdg[wit={B2}]{pauraṇḍaṅka}
     \rdg[wit={C3}]{pauraṃṭaṃka}
     \rdg[wit={N16,N24}]{kauraṇṭakaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={N12}]{kauraṃṭaka}
     \rdg[wit={J14,V26}]{kauraṇḍakaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{koraṃṭaka}
     \rdg[wit={J4,N21,N23}]{koraṃtakaḥ }

     \rdg[wit={N2}]{koraṇṭīkaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={N3}]{goraṃṭaka}
     \rdg[wit={M1}]{ghoraṃṭakaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={V8}]{\unm kāhapauraṇṭaka}
     \rdg[wit={Vu}]{koraṃḍīka}
     \rdg[wit={V2}]{kauraṃḍīkaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={N20}]{paura...kaḥ } %illeg

}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{surānandaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={B2,N12}]{sarānanda}
     \rdg[wit={C2,J2,N2,N3,V3,N22,V2}]{surānanda}
     \rdg[wit={N24}]{śurānaṃdaḥ }
     \rdg[wit={J4}]{sarānandaḥ }

}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
     \rdg[wit={V1,J1,J2,N16,N24}]{siddhi}
     \rdg[wit={V8}]{siddhā}

     \rdg[wit={N22}]{pāda}

\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{carpaṭiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={B1,B2,N2,N17,N23,V3,V4}]{carppaṭiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={C3,J17,V6}]{carppaṭī}
     \rdg[wit={C4ac,C6,C7,V1,V2}]{carpaṭī}
     \rdg[wit={C4pc,J1,J15,N3,V8,N24}]{carpaṭi}
     \rdg[wit={J2}]{tarpaṭi}
     \rdg[wit={M1}]{parpaṭiḥ}
     \rdg[wit={N5}]{carpaṭīḥ}
     \rdg[wit={N11,V11}]{carpaṭaḥ}

%\note*{1.6cd is omitted in C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19.}
}//}
\end{tlg}



---------


details make daily life of the editor complicated.

I hope the next example is more or less intelligible.
We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:

samyaggomaya


modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.

\app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
      \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
      \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
      \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
      \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
      \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
      \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
\rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
}%
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
      \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
      \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
\rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
}


with and slowing down editing considerably.


something that can be kept simple.

thanks for you responses and I apologize for the lengthy post, which is just to give you an impression of the current practice in my field (Sanskrit Studies, Indology). For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now reledmac) have become the standard for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible - some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce online editions This is where a new (LuaTeX) package called ekdosis, currently being developed by Robert Alessi, comes in. It produces a printed version and in the same TeX run an xml file. In an ongoing editorial project we are using this method and it works very well. While the system is ingenious and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks. I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue. We also do not have the resources for the long-term care for data such as online editions, but this is In a previous project, a large edition (30000 verses, 15 years), I tried to use the easiest method. It turned out that edmac was not even necessary and not using it made the main file from which we are working very readable and greatly simplified daily work. Just to give you an impression from our input file: The first two lines in the next paragraph are the Sanskrit text in transcription, \var produces a variant with reference to the verse number and verse quarter (a-d). So no line numbering was even necessary. The \lem produces the sign that divides the critical text and its witnesses from the variants, usually "]", the rest are sigla, like S1, S3    \var{5b}{anu \Sseven \Sft \lem \emph{param} \Sone \Sthree \Snine \Ntwelve \Ntw} I used pdflatex and memoir, which has paragraphed footnotes. Here is the relevant section from the \setlength{\linenumbersep}{0pt}\setlength{\linenumberwidth}{0pt}\modulolinenumbers[2] This is what I compiled from different examples (I am not a programmer), but it worked -- the Working with this file was easy, because one could easily read the text.  The usual edmac code would have required us to identify an lemma with \edtext and then write the variant directly into the text. This may not matter in the case of few variants, but with many variants the text is quickly rendered unreadable -- even with all tricks to make footnotes invisible (I use folding in emacs). The following would be a single example verse (32 syllables, same size as the one quoted \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={B1,B3,C2,C3,C4pc,C6,N1,J10,J13,J17,N6,N10,N13,N17,Tü,V4,V11,V22,V26}]{śuddha} %stemma point      \rdg[wit={V8}]{suddho}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={buddhaś ca}]{buddha\skp{ś-ca}} \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,J1,J3,N3,N16,N20,V2,V3,V26}]{buddhiś ca}%stemma point      \rdg[wit={N5}]{pauraṃṭhakaḥ } % group according to alphabetical order?      \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,N13,Tü,V22,Vu}]{koraṃṭakaḥ }% stemma point? \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={pādaś}]{pāda\skp{ś-ca}} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={ca}]{\skm{ś-ca}}      \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}} \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}} It is obvious that it is not possible to read the text anymore, a single verse does not even fit the screen. For editing and selecting the variants one has to produce a formatted pdf version. Another disadvantage of the edmac style approach is that it expects European languages. Scripts are no more the main problem, but the interaction of different scripts, word divisions and other minute The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the Indian script that we use for the critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both words, we cannot just separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed correctly. We also want to quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). Now, to make things more complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so we have to split samyag and gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as \skp{g}, which explains to the xml converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because of this mess, we need a Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all becoming very ingenious and it is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also increasingly complicated to work This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for

The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?

Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

Greetings
Jürgen








     Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +0000
       Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
   Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
        An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>

----- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> ---------         Cc: Bruce Horrocks <n...@scorecrow.com>, Idris Samawi Hamid <isha...@colostate.edu>

On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to educate myself I found this page <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere? The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied? ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

----- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> ----- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net

___________________________________________________________________________________

--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton

 % Le script suivant nécessite différents tests avec une manipulation des paramètres, afin de préciser ce qui convient le mieux à votre travail d'édition. Ce script offre le schéma de plusieurs possibilités d'affichage des notes en bas de page avec diverses possibilités simultanées. On peut affiner encore, en ajoutant d'autres commandes stipulant les marges, les en-têtes, le numéro des pages, etc.
 \mainlanguage[la] % Définition du latin comme langue principale du document.
 \setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]
 \setuplayout[header=2cm, footer=2cm] % Paramétrage de la page;
 \setuplinenumbering[step=2] % La sortie PDF comportera une numérotation de 5 en 5; on peut régler sur 1 (ou 10).
 \setupnotations[alternative=serried] % On définit le caractère séquentiel des notes.
 \definelinenote[aNote] % Plusieurs manières d'afficher les notes ici, notamment en une ou en plusieurs colonnes (n=2, ou n=3).
 \definelinenote[bNote][n=2]
 \definelinenote[cNote][n=3]
 \definelinenote[dNote][paragraph=yes] % Les notes se suivent sur la même ligne.
 \def\ANote#1#2{#1\aNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\BNote#1#2{#1\bNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\DNote#1#2{#1\dNote{#1] #2}}
 \setupbodyfont[palatino, 7.8pt]
 \starttext
 \start\fr % On indique à ConTeXt que l'on veut ici du texte en français (ou 'en' pour l'anglais).
{\em Définir un apparat critique et le mettre en page avec un traitement de texte courant est un véritable casse-tête. \type{LaTeX} et \type{ConTeXt} offrent des outils d'automatisation encore assez mal connus dans la communauté des éditeurs, notamment dans l'édition savante, pour la collation et la comparaison de textes médiévaux}.\par
 \startlinenumbering
 \dorecurse{6}% À utiliser seulement pour répéter le paragraphe suivant, ici 8 fois.
    {Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
    muneribus aut omnino aut magna ex parte essem aliquando liberatus,
    rettuli me, Brute, te hortante maxime ad ea studia, quae retenta
    animo, remissa temporibus, longo intervallo intermissa revocavi, et
    cum omnium artium, quae ad rectam vivendi viam pertinerent,
    \ANote{ratio}{seconde note} et disciplina studio sapientiae, quae
    philosophia dicitur, contineretur, hoc mihi Latinis litteris
    \DNote{inlustrandum}{troisième note} putavi, non quia
    \BNote{philosophia}{quatrième note} Graecis et litteris et doctoribus
    percipi non posset, sed meum semper iudicium fuit omnia nostros aut
    invenisse per se sapientius quam Graecos aut accepta ab illis
    fecisse meliora, quae quidem digna statuissent, in quibus
    elaborarent.\par}
 \stoplinenumbering
 \stoptext

ConTeXt_Test_FooteNote-ComplexMedieval.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________