(renaming the thread since it has drifted) On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Raphael Bircher <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Rob > > Am 30.08.11 20:52, schrieb Rob Weir: >> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Raphael Bircher<[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rob >>> >>> So you want to split the community into a official apache and a >>> inofficial >>> extendet community? That will happend if you will fellow strictly the >>> apache >>> way. Then we will have the Development here and the rest outthere. If >>> this >>> is good or bad, I don't know. But if it's like that, we should start to >>> organize te inofficial Community. >>> >> Are there some aspects of the Apache Way that the OOo community does not >> like? >> >> * collaborative software development >> >> * commercial-friendly standard license >> >> * consistently high quality software >> >> * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction >> >> * faithful implementation of standards >> >> * security as a mandatory feature [1] >> >> I'd be interested in hearing why these aspects of the Apache Way are >> unacceptable. Maybe it would help if you explained what you think are >> the core beliefs of the OOo community and where they are in conflict >> with the above. >
Thanks for the good response, Raphael, this is useful to discuss. > Not the points above but the flowing > > * That it's strange to organize Events under Apache > Of course Apache events will be organized by Apache, just like LibreOffice events are organized by The Document Foundation. That should not be very odd. Also, there can be third-party events, not run by Apache. If these events use the Apache name or project trademarks or logos then they require coordination/approval with the Apache Conferences Committee: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/events.html I don't think this is a very severe constraint. There are a lot of informal "barcamp" style events that could be organized by project members. If we coordinate with the Conferences Committee I don't see a problem here. Things ranging from hack fests, etc., are all possible. What will not be possible is for an independent group of volunteers to organized an event in their country, and call it "Apache OpenOffice Foo" and hold this event without coordinating and seeking the approval from the Apache Conferences Committee. But if they do the coordination, then I don't see a problem. > * The Apache fundrising politic > That is harder. An independent group could obviously do fundraising on its own, but I don't see how it could use the Apache brands for this. > * The fact that Apache has no concept what to do with people outside > developing. > Could you be more specific? Marketing, event organizing, fundraising, etc., are all things that can be done in Apache, but they are done at the ASF level, not at the project level. Similarly, you don't see anyone doing a fundraiser for LibreOffice Calc. It is all done at The Document Foundation level. Within the project there are ways for everyone else to participate: programmers, testers, documentation authors, translators, user support, UI design, web design, etc. > * The fact that only no permisive Lisence are alowed > This is certainly true for code and content that are part of a release. Apache 2.0 license is a key part of how Apache works. > * The fact that we have to rewrite all the documentation including > translation cause Lisence Issues > There may be other options here. For example, when IBM donates the Symphony code, we can also contribute the documentation and translations. This is all original work from us, which we can give under ALv2. > * The Fact that is nearly impossible to get a Native language List. > I think that is mainly a start up issue. We're trying to avoid premature fragmentation by splitting into too many mailing lists too early. We want to encourage discussions like this, which everyone (hopefully) will read. We'll get more mailing lists over time. But part of getting the community to come together is to get us all in the same virtual room (this mailing list) and debate these issues until we are said what we need to say., > It does not mean that we have a complete split. But same kind of activity > has simply no place unter apache, or are so hard to integrate that no one > will do it. So it's much better to do it outside, as to skip it or do > nothing. > There are examples of this already, like oooforums, odfauthors, etc. I think these projects like these could be done under Apache as well. There is nothing procedural, technical or legal that would prevent it. A sign of a healthy open source projects is that it spawns derivatives and other projects. Look at Linux. Look at OOo, with all the versions and other projects it created. This has always happened and always will happen. This is not a bad thing. But I think we still want to ensure that the "core" work on what we consider to be an AOOo "release" occur in the project, under ALv2, according to Apache procedures, etc. As always there are forces that tend to split projects apart: 1) Desire for autonomy 2) Technical differences 3) License disagreements 4) Personality conflicts 5) Disagreement on level of formality 6) Disagreement on pace of work and so on. And there are forces that tend to keep projects together: 1) Shared accomplishment 2) Shared infrastructure 3) Economies of scale 4) Critical mass of expertise 5) Personal identification with project 6) Established user base and network of after-market goods and services and so on. Every project, new or old, deals with opposing forces like this. We're really no different than any other project. We need to be honest about what the challenges are and face them. Regards, -Rob > Greetings Raphael >>
