A specific question. What is the criteria for a QE member to become a committer?
On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net> wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.sch...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >>>>>>> FWIW, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles >>>>>> >>>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> My question/concern at this point would be -- >>>>>> >>>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice? >>>>> >>>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members on >>> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all. >>> I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes as >>> a matter of policy. >>>>> >>>>> What do others think? >>>>> >>>> >>>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different >>>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome. >>>> >>>> But it will depend on the individual. Consider three types of >>> contributors: >>>> >>>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache >>>> >>>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from >>>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another >>>> project >>>> >>>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache >>>> >>>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the >>>> necessary skills these roles. In the first category, the experienced >>>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly, >>>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way. But in the other >>>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case), >>>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer >>>> period of time, >>>> >>>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles. >>> >>> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in >>> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case. >>> >> >> Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with >> the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss >> participation in some arenas. > > We certainly will. > >> >> I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current >> PPMC member (or two) has their fingers in several areas. > > It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage > contributors. The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look > likely. Committers can send suggestions to ooo-private along with the areas > of contribution and interested PMC members can look for sustained effort. > >> >> A discussion for another time perhaps. > > Yes. > > Regards, > Dave > >> >>> >>> Consider >>> (a) Committers on another project. >>> (b) PMC members on another project. >>> >>> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another >>> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior >>> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea for >>> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the >>> "Initial Committer" list. >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> If there were a way to make people members of the >>>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that >>>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically >>>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not >>>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to >>>> committers by default. >>> >>> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric >>> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that >>> differ from project to project. >>> >> >> definitely +1 on this. >> >> Committers first... >> >> >>> >>> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to >>> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Dave >>> >>>> >>>> -Rob >>>> >>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pedro. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayo...@gmail.com> ha scritto: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of >>>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC >>>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all >>>>>>>> contributors get >>>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC >>>>>>>> member is here >>>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for >>>>>>>> committer and >>>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time. >>>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A comment from Rob: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project, >>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc, >>>>>>>> support.� This >>>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better >>>>>>>> job giving >>>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If >>>>>>>> the feeling is >>>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a >>>>>>>> PPMC member, >>>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we >>>>>>>> trust their judgement >>>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The >>>>>>>> move from >>>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be >>>>>>>> reviewed) >>>>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they >>>>>>>> are doing quality >>>>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our >>>>>>>> commits.� So we >>>>>>>> need to trust their judgement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they >>>>>>>> understand The >>>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On >>>>>>>> average are >>>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are >>>>>>>> causing?� Are they >>>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we >>>>>>>> graduate, and our >>>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively >>>>>>>> needs to >>>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC >>>>>>>> is more about >>>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical >>>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3 >>>>>>>> at the same >>>>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated >>>>>>>> previously.� I think there was >>>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC >>>>>>>> suitably large >>>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously >>>>>>>> started with a PPMC >>>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand >>>>>>>> Apache.� That is the >>>>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach >>>>>>>> is necessarily >>>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we >>>>>>>> approach >>>>>>>> graduation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> MzK >>>>>> >>>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll >>>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul >>>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can >>>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." >>>>>> -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> MzK >> >> "So let it rock, let it roll >> Let the bible belt come and save my soul >> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can >> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." >> -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp >
