On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM, jan iversen <[email protected]>wrote:
> Se below please. > > On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I could > do > > > but have not (yet) done :-) > > > > > > > Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing > > everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there so > > we dont need to go through the many gotchas again. > > > > I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear > you say the same thing. > > I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some hours > researching > - our sites > - libreOffice > - openSource (for the tools used) > - my old sun knowledge > > BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n, > there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly > point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is > better than none. > > > > > > > > > > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for > l10n > > > but in general for new volunteers joining in. > > > > > > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and > > > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready ? > > > > > > have a nice night. > > > jan > > > > > > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen < > [email protected] > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that > > > would > > > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me. > > > > > > > > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out > there, > > > so > > > > it > > > > > should just be a list with links) > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers: > > > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ? > > > > > > > - What can I do to help ? > > > > > > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way > > up) > > > > ? > > > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key > persons) ? > > > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use > > my > > > > > contribution elsewhere) ? > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors > > > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or > use > > > > talk) > > > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, > are > > > > there > > > > > any QA ? > > > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are > old > > > and > > > > > outdated) ? > > > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ? > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a translator > > > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki > > > pages > > > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting > > point) > > > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ? > > > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ? > > > > > - Who do I contact to get started ? > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a tester > > > > > - How can I help testing ? > > > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ? > > > > > - Which tools do I need ? > > > > > - How do I report bugs ? > > > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ? > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a developer > > > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming > > > > standards > > > > > etc.) ? > > > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for > > > > Ubuntu...the > > > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the > last > > > bit > > > > (a > > > > > simple flag was wrong)) > > > > > - Where do I find source ? > > > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ? > > > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ? > > > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more > > > questions > > > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we > > still > > > > not sure what will be there? > > > > > > > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old > > content > > > untouched and making people like me utterly confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at > > the > > > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list. > > > > > > > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more > > than > > > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no > later > > > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have to > > find > > > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what can go and > what > > > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better than > to > > > sit on your hands). > > > > > > > Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose > to > > put >3.x info as archived content. > > > Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html to > get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of > openoffice.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non > > > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well). > > > > > > > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing > > consultancy > > > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC). > > > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal. > > > > > > > Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the l10n > > process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the apps > no > > longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or > > not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the > > process. > > > How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I > know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for > the UNIX PC product line. > There are within one folder o the content/l10n/localization/ they are a sxw and odt documents. Quaste might be in /content/qa/qatestool If you are using tortoisesvn should be easy to locate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can > > provide > > > or > > > > QA the localized strings. > > > > > > > Just my words! > > > > > > > Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont speak > > that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion? > > > NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an > "anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet > with positive tunes. > > I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and to > be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a > consequence total unstable. > Rob is mentioning something about some user level and access. I think this will be dictate with the applications that are builted around the project. I think the main focus sould be on building this ones. > > What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same > services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get > the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a > bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the code. > iitude > I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not like > many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors > makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do not > want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it > "simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A think tank of a ML. > > > > > > > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n > list, > > > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with > > the > > > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a > > hibrid > > > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was > a > > > > mixture of technical and community minded processes. So is important > > we > > > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of > this > > > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that > > > > direction. > > > > > > > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it > for > > > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I > started > > > writing documents. > > > > > > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot > of > > > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what happens, > so > > > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !! > > > > > > > We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present it > in > > a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and follow. > > Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!! > > > In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc. not > how to get in touch with the NLC again. > There is no NLC anymore, now international mailing list are just starting up (which is a good thing) but no centralize piece (except here, maybe) to get them to exchange information. > > I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list, but > I think we need more than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, > and > > > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the > > infrastructure. > > > > > > > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working for > > > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want > to > > > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come > > from > > > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this > > happen > > > ! > > > > > > > Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point to > > the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to > the > > ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need help > > changing all that to the top level domain now. > > > > I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking them > as old or to be kept (in my opinion). > > I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to > tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what > is the correct way: > I guess is what way of doing it, I preffer the "release fast, release often, iterate". Than having through go throw a bunch of diff files. > 1) publish and correct the objections received > 2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more > objections. > > Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self > about the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the site. > I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to > get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift > elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what > > > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap: > > > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/ > > > > > > > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the > years > > to > > > come, but I think I have other skills to offer. > > > > > > > There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read them > > to make sure u know what this meant. > > > If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to > Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool > Yes TCM stand for Test case management, which are collection of testing process to go through the application and grade it on a [pass, fail, skip and comment]. All this for the different versions, architectures. There is also a Sanity Check which is more automated, this is better explained on the wiki. Locale communities can wait for dev to release the milestones after the code freeze or do an internal build before this and run their own test processes. At the moment we needed some help on making the flow faster and having "on demand" builds. > > I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI > with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that hints > that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools > should be able to run the same tests for language versions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far > as > > > > terminology management. > > > > > > > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs in > > SVN > > > alongside with translations !! > > > > > > > Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology. > > * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain. > > > Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff) > > > * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual > > contributor, so what to do? > > > We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a zip > file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed. > > I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of tracking, > reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with the > fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes). > I wonder if we can re-tuilize the CMS engine to generate CRUD apps for this, or should we generate the apps elsewhere. However this will add to your previous issue about having and mantaining multiple accounts. > > * There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian, > > and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder. > > * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish > > > If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call > the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The > danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO > and AOO. > > > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other non product related activities like website making it more > > flexible > > > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage > the > > > > right locale for users. > > > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js > > > > > > > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation > > > > intelligence. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Alexandro Colorado > > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice > > > > http://es.openoffice.org > > > > > > > > > > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a team > > and > > > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can > by > > > catalysts to get things moving ! > > > > > > There are 3 big issues outstanding: > > > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place, > > > - get the l10n documentation in place, > > > - get the people involved back together. > > > > > > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different > > skill > > > sets. > > > > > > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with > editing, I > > > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking. > > > > > > have a nice night. > > > janI. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Alexandro Colorado > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice > > http://es.openoffice.org > > > > Have a nice night > Jan. > > Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in > alora/andalucia ? > I am not located in Spain, I am in Cancun, Mexico. -- Alexandro Colorado PPMC Apache OpenOffice http://es.openoffice.org
