On 20 October 2012 23:22, Alexandro Colorado <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM, jan iversen <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Se below please. > > > > On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[email protected] > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I > could > > do > > > > but have not (yet) done :-) > > > > > > > > > > Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing > > > everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there > so > > > we dont need to go through the many gotchas again. > > > > > > I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear > > you say the same thing. > > > > I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some > hours > > researching > > - our sites > > - libreOffice > > - openSource (for the tools used) > > - my old sun knowledge > > > > BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n, > > there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly > > point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is > > better than none. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for > > l10n > > > > but in general for new volunteers joining in. > > > > > > > > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and > > > > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready ? > > > > > > > > have a nice night. > > > > jan > > > > > > > > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen < > > [email protected] > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, > that > > > > would > > > > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me. > > > > > > > > > > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out > > there, > > > > so > > > > > it > > > > > > should just be a list with links) > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers: > > > > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ? > > > > > > > > > - What can I do to help ? > > > > > > > > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the > way > > > up) > > > > > ? > > > > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key > > persons) ? > > > > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I > use > > > my > > > > > > contribution elsewhere) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors > > > > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or > > use > > > > > talk) > > > > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, > > are > > > > > there > > > > > > any QA ? > > > > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are > > old > > > > and > > > > > > outdated) ? > > > > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a translator > > > > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some > wiki > > > > pages > > > > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting > > > point) > > > > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ? > > > > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ? > > > > > > - Who do I contact to get started ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a tester > > > > > > - How can I help testing ? > > > > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ? > > > > > > - Which tools do I need ? > > > > > > - How do I report bugs ? > > > > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggested reading for a developer > > > > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming > > > > > standards > > > > > > etc.) ? > > > > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for > > > > > Ubuntu...the > > > > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the > > last > > > > bit > > > > > (a > > > > > > simple flag was wrong)) > > > > > > - Where do I find source ? > > > > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ? > > > > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ? > > > > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more > > > > questions > > > > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we > > > still > > > > > not sure what will be there? > > > > > > > > > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old > > > content > > > > untouched and making people like me utterly confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so > at > > > the > > > > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list. > > > > > > > > > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more > > > than > > > > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no > > later > > > > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have > to > > > find > > > > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what can go and > > what > > > > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better > than > > to > > > > sit on your hands). > > > > > > > > > > Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose > > to > > > put >3.x info as archived content. > > > > > Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html > to > > get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of > > openoffice.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non > > > > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well). > > > > > > > > > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing > > > consultancy > > > > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC). > > > > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal. > > > > > > > > > > Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the > l10n > > > process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the > apps > > no > > > longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or > > > not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the > > > process. > > > > > How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I > > know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for > > the UNIX PC product line. > > > > There are within one folder o the content/l10n/localization/ they are a sxw > and odt documents. Quaste might be in /content/qa/qatestool > > If you are using tortoisesvn should be easy to locate. > got it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can > > > provide > > > > or > > > > > QA the localized strings. > > > > > > > > > Just my words! > > > > > > > > > > Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont > speak > > > that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion? > > > > > NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an > > "anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet > > with positive tunes. > > > > I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and > to > > be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a > > consequence total unstable. > > > > Rob is mentioning something about some user level and access. I think this > will be dictate with the applications that are builted around the project. > I think the main focus sould be on building this ones. > +1 > > > > > > What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same > > services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get > > the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a > > bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the > code. > > iitude > > I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not > like > > many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors > > makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do > not > > want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it > > "simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A think tank of a ML. > > > > > > > > > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n > > list, > > > > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely > with > > > the > > > > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a > > > hibrid > > > > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally > was > > a > > > > > mixture of technical and community minded processes. So is > important > > > we > > > > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of > > this > > > > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into > that > > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it > > for > > > > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I > > started > > > > writing documents. > > > > > > > > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot > > of > > > > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what > happens, > > so > > > > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !! > > > > > > > > > > We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present > it > > in > > > a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and > follow. > > > Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!! > > > > > In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc. > not > > how to get in touch with the NLC again. > > > > There is no NLC anymore, now international mailing list are just starting > up (which is a good thing) but no centralize piece (except here, maybe) to > get them to exchange information. > I am sure we have at least the skeleton of a central piece in a couple of weeks time. I am right now more concerned about the approval process for a new workflow. I have learned from Andrea that a change like that can take many weeks to decide on, in my opinion we do not have a lot of options. > > > > > > I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list, > but > > I think we need more than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, > > and > > > > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > > > > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working > for > > > > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want > > to > > > > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come > > > from > > > > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this > > > happen > > > > ! > > > > > > > > > > Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point > to > > > the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to > > the > > > ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need > help > > > changing all that to the top level domain now. > > > > > > > I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking > them > > as old or to be kept (in my opinion). > > > > I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to > > tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what > > is the correct way: > > > > I guess is what way of doing it, I preffer the "release fast, release > often, iterate". Than having through go throw a bunch of diff files. > Point taken, I will send it page by page. > > > > 1) publish and correct the objections received > > 2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more > > objections. > > > > Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self > > about the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the > site. > > I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to > > get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift > > elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what > > > > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap: > > > > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/ > > > > > > > > > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the > > years > > > to > > > > come, but I think I have other skills to offer. > > > > > > > > > > There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read > them > > > to make sure u know what this meant. > > > > > If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to > > Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool > > > > Yes TCM stand for Test case management, which are collection of testing > process to go through the application and grade it on a [pass, fail, skip > and comment]. All this for the different versions, architectures. > > There is also a Sanity Check which is more automated, this is better > explained on the wiki. Locale communities can wait for dev to release the > milestones after the code freeze or do an internal build before this and > run their own test processes. At the moment we needed some help on making > the flow faster and having "on demand" builds. > In my proposal I have an automated generation of language files (.po or .xliff), so if a person runs "build --all", all language files will be ready for translation, I cannot to that easier. > > > > > > I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI > > with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that > hints > > that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools > > should be able to run the same tests for language versions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far > > as > > > > > terminology management. > > > > > > > > > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs > in > > > SVN > > > > alongside with translations !! > > > > > > > > > > Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology. > > > * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain. > > > > > Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff) > > > > > * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual > > > contributor, so what to do? > > > > > We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a > zip > > file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed. > > > > > I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of > tracking, > > reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with > the > > fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes). > > > > I wonder if we can re-tuilize the CMS engine to generate CRUD apps for > this, or should we generate the apps elsewhere. However this will add to > your previous issue about having and mantaining multiple accounts. > You have a point...we could also use wiki, if we could get a php script triggered we are home safe. That way offline translators could "submit" the translation as an upload to a web page or wiki, and the script would either hold the file in a staging area waiting for a committer to commit it, or (which I prefer) autocommit it with a special user. > > > > > > * There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian, > > > and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder. > > > * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish > > > > > If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call > > the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The > > danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO > > and AOO. > > > > > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other non product related activities like website making it more > > > flexible > > > > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage > > the > > > > > right locale for users. > > > > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js > > > > > > > > > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation > > > > > intelligence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Alexandro Colorado > > > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice > > > > > http://es.openoffice.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a > team > > > and > > > > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can > > by > > > > catalysts to get things moving ! > > > > > > > > There are 3 big issues outstanding: > > > > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place, > > > > - get the l10n documentation in place, > > > > - get the people involved back together. > > > > > > > > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different > > > skill > > > > sets. > > > > > > > > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with > > editing, I > > > > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking. > > > > > > > > have a nice night. > > > > janI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Alexandro Colorado > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice > > > http://es.openoffice.org > > > > > > > Have a nice night > > Jan. > > > > Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in > > alora/andalucia ? > > > > I am not located in Spain, I am in Cancun, Mexico. > Nice place, I had a project long time ago at the border to belize, which I think is relatively close. > > -- > Alexandro Colorado > PPMC Apache OpenOffice > http://es.openoffice.org >
