Hi Ivan, On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Ivan Vodišek <ivan.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it was a very good decision not to be tied to a specific logic > system, but to go a level further - to develop Atomese that can describe > any system. I just don't get why didn't all of OpenCog add-ons (like MOSES) > developed in Atomese. > History. The moses vertex was supposed to be the same thing as the atom; that was always the intent, but no one really knew how to design an atom correctly. It still doesn't quite feel right, it still seems kind-of heavy, clunky, somehow. Anyway, given the pressure of writing code and getting good performance out of it ... design decisions get made, and the moses vertex-atom was created before the opencog-atom was fully designed. > Why do you still have to use C, Scheme, Python and possibly other > languages? > Because atomese is a horrible language for humans. Its not meant for humans -- its really like an IL, its meant to hold data structures that algorithms can mutate into various forms. It would be cool if we had a compiler for it, but that does not yet seem urgent, and might be premature, its still not clear that everything got done right. > In my opinion, universal rule rewriting system such is Atomese powered by > chainers (did I get it right?) should be as complete as lambda calculus, > thus should be capable to describe any conceivable algorithm. > Uh, yes, there is an explicit lambda atom in atomese, and also an explicit beta-reduction atom, and the evaluator can evaluate them, so you can certainly map all of lambda calculus on there. You can even do a typed, probabilistic lambda calculus; atomese has a fairly rich type system. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/LambdaLink_and_ScopeLink http://wiki.opencog.org/w/PutLink http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Cog-evaluate! http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Cog-execute! I mean, I guess you could layer lisp or scheme on to of atomese, but it would be painfully slow, with the current evaluator, and would be quite bloated, since atoms are fat. Atoms get indexed in the atomspace, and that ends up being costly in both cpu and ram. We index them because we want to use the atomspace for KR... which conflicts with using them only for performing calculations. Its a balancing act, its hard to figure out where the imbalance is. --linas > > > > 2017-05-10 0:56 GMT+02:00 Linas Vepstas <linasveps...@gmail.com>: > >> Yes, opencog atomese is very much influenced by ideas from prolog. >> >> However, unlike flora2 and ergo, it just seemed easier to cut loose and >> ignore all the other buzz-words: "semantic web" "W3C", RIF, etc because >> trying to track all of that, being buzzword compliant, was just wayyy too >> much work. >> >> Also, atomsese is unlike prolog (or flora or ergo) because it's very >> interested in probabilistic methods: have not boolean true/false, but have >> probabilities attached to everything. this means that in the end, all the >> buzzwords in flora/ergo would need to get ported to a probabilistic, >> uncertain-inference framework. And that changes the game completely. >> >> Also, another difference: those urls mention >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-logic whereas atomese is a "meta-logic", >> so that you can layer f-logic or whatever your favorite system or logic, on >> top of atomese. It tries hard to not care about what logic or KR system >> you want to use. It got pushed that way because of the goofy arguments >> between Pei Wang's NARS group, and Opencog's PLN: I just said -- screw it, >> make a system that can do either or both at the same time. whatever >> structure or formula you want to use .. Bayesian probability or something >> else ... its up to you. The chainers and the pattern tools are meant to be >> generic. >> >> >> >> --linas >> >> >> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Dmitry Ponyatov <dponya...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> but I am not pursuing this path because I want object-oriented code - >>>> the generated code should be of industrial quality. >>>> >>> >>> I see Prolog-derivatives as implementation of backtracking reasoner on >>> top of hypergraph knowledge base -- prolog rules look like exclusively >>> hypergraph beast. >>> >>> Maybe you should look here ? This Ergo/Flora system include mix of >>> >>> - Minsky frames looks like native representation for object-based >>> software systems, and >>> - Transactional Reasoning represents state machines behavior in >>> logic programming domain. >>> >>> https://sites.google.com/a/coherentknowledge.com/ergo-suite-tutorial/ >>> >>> and free core at http://flora.sourceforge.net/ >>> >>> Flora-2 (a.k.a. Ergo Lite) is an advanced object-oriented knowledge >>> representation and reasoning system. It is a dialect of F-logic with >>> numerous extensions, including meta-programming in the style of HiLog, >>> logical updates in the style of Transaction Logic, and defeasible >>> reasoning. Applications include intelligent agents, Semantic Web, >>> knowledge-based networking, ontology management, integration of >>> information, security policy analysis, and more. >>> >>> >>> >>> At first time I thought about opencog as a partner for Flora, firstly, >>> as a visualization tool (it seems Flora lacks it) and as a generic engine >>> for non-backtracking applications. >>> But I found lot of problems with opencog nonportability and lack of >>> prebuilt packages for Debian Linux, not speaking about necessity to shove a >>> buggy virtualbox to my win32 host system. >>> >>> Now I'm playing with http://hypergraphdb.org as standin for opencog at >>> this role. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "opencog" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to opencog+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to opencog@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/opencog. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms >>> gid/opencog/7ead7c35-ec95-4ddf-874c-0f4ddb38a935%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/7ead7c35-ec95-4ddf-874c-0f4ddb38a935%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "opencog" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to opencog+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to opencog@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/opencog. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms >> gid/opencog/CAHrUA35mEEiUx6boeWxR4TmtknrUTOLmt2_yNwdmHY8%3D5 >> A3LCw%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35mEEiUx6boeWxR4TmtknrUTOLmt2_yNwdmHY8%3D5A3LCw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "opencog" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to opencog+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to opencog@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/opencog. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms > gid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6XA7T2E-MKO69_z0sPQWM%2BjftaG3rHbqTCA7YT > %2BaucsVw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6XA7T2E-MKO69_z0sPQWM%2BjftaG3rHbqTCA7YT%2BaucsVw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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