Hi Sam, I actually did think Stefan was making an important point about clinical modelling. If I have understood Stefan's comments correctly , he is stating that in his experience interoperability is rarely possible without local negotiation, compromise and detailed understanding of the use case and shared requirements. That would also be my view, which is why I believe that while good definition and ontological analysis is helpful, it will never be possible to 'clean room' interoperability without directly involving the end-use stakeholders: Interoperability is ultimately negotiated not designed.
The value of the archetype approach is in making this negotiation progressively possible without asking end-users to become embroiled in complex technical discussions. Complex and detailed clinical discussions will still be required but that is only to be expected. Ian On 24 June 2012 22:43, Sam Heard <sam.heard at oceaninformatics.com> wrote: > Thanks Stefan > This is a highly technical discussion and should not be on this list. > Cheers, Sam > > > On 22/06/2012 5:28 PM, Stefan Sauermann wrote: > > Hello eveybody! > Looking at this discussion, the volume it is taking weighted against the > visible progress I ask myself if this is an efficient way to reach > harmonised conclusions. > > In our experience doing the national EHR standards and the lab report for > Austria we noticed: > - Once you reach a sufficient level of detail it is not possible to reach > generic (one fits all) solutions within available timeframes. > - Data models and their descriptions only started to work after all involved > had agreed on a specific, crisp and clear definition of the usecase. > - No information model / description did work for all thinkable usecases. > - We had to tailor information models to specific usecases. > - Then bridging from one use case into the other becomes a challenge, as > subtle differences in the information will become an issue. > - In order to bridge information from one specific use case into the other > we typically need to define another specific usecase. > > I do not see the specific usecases you are referring to. I therefore can not > contribute to or understand this discussion. Maybe I missed something. > Sorry! > > Greetings from Vienna, > > Stefan Sauermann > > Program Director > Biomedical Engineering Sciences (Master) > > University of Applied Sciences Technikum Wien > Hoechstaedtplatz 5, 1200 Vienna, Austria > P: +43 1 333 40 77 - 988 > M: +43 664 6192555 > E: stefan.sauermann at technikum-wien.at > > I: www.technikum-wien.at/mbe > I: www.technikum-wien.at/ibmt > I: www.healthy-interoperability.at > > > Am 22.06.2012 09:29, schrieb Gerard Freriks: > > Yes. > > It all is about classifying. > It is all about proper definitions we all share and use. > > I believe that when we all interpret the definitions in our own way in our > own data bases all is working nicely. > > The moment we start to exchange this data we will discover that we are not > interoperable, > The moment we start to re-use data in clinical decision support service we > will discover that all systems that worked so nicely, have become problems > to connect. > > As EN13606 we work at full semantic interoperability as much as possible. > So we have to define many things, we use to produce archetypes, properly. > Don't we all have an obligation to make semantic interoperability possible? > > > Gerard Freriks > +31 620347088 > gfrer at luna.nl > > > > > On 22 Jun 2012, at 02:45, Jussara wrote: > > Think the background of our discussions is about CLASSfying. > > Sent from my iPad > > > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-clinical mailing list > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-clinical mailing list > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-clinical mailing list > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org -- Dr Ian McNicoll office +44 (0)1536 414 994 fax +44 (0)1536 516317 mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 skype ianmcnicoll ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com Clinical Modelling Consultant,?Ocean Informatics, UK Director openEHR Foundation ?www.openehr.org/knowledge Honorary Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL SCIMP Working Group, NHS Scotland BCS Primary Health Care ?www.phcsg.org
