Rachel I very much agree with you. In many ways I wish the Oracle certification would dry up and blow away. Since I have a number of years with Oracle, if organizations could only go by that as their simple measure, all I can say is "works for me". The ability of Oracle to control the "correct" answers and force us to research specific technologies like RMAN is something I've griped about here before. Although one reason for taking the first exam was because I was having a hard time getting the hang of RMAN and I figured that taking the exam would force me to learn it. It worked too. And once you get past the HR paper shuffle, I agree that your ability to sell yourself to the hiring people is what counts, not the OCP. What I worry about is being in the situation where not having OCP cuts down on your ability to get that job interview. It isn't the end of the world since there are many other creative avenues to get a job. As a DBA I'm a professional worry-wart and I worry about getting my job chances reduced by not having the OCP. Because it has become popular enough that it seems to be on the verge of being "expected". And maybe I'm just being paranoid and hiring managers aren't really asking for the OCP. I haven't seen any hard evidence, just anecdotes. Maybe instead we on this list should form an Oracle DBA Guild and only let people in that think like us. Boycott the OCP. I think Jack makes some excellent points from Oracle's point of view, about them having to tread a fine line. At first they have to lower the requirements so it becomes popular and accepted. Then they have to raise the requirements so that its value doesn't become too diluted with wannabes or "paper DBAs". This is part of what pushed me into going ahead, that they seem to be making each series of the test harder. Jack, I always appreciate insights into what is going on with the "other side". From the comments about the upcoming "hands-on" sessions, maybe you'll eventually get a test more to your liking. :-)
Dennis Williams DBA, 20% OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, I'm not a consultant, I'm a full-time employee here. and I got this job through a recruiter, someone who did NOT know me at all. Same for the people here that I interviewed with. I got this job because by the end of the tech interview I had the guy interviewing me saying "hey, we should look into that, hey we should see if we are doing that" and scribbling notes on things to check on. Having a "name" doesn't get you past HR, 'cause the people who know your name are usually not the ones doing the initial review. My problem with OCP/OCM is that it doesn't test a damn thing that you know, but rather tests those things that Oracle wants to "push". I don't know RMAN, CMAN or AQ. Yet those along with partitioning (and I haven't worked with partition tables before, although I'm definitely about to now) made up the bulk of the questions on the exams. Hand me the CDs to install. Give me the specs for what you want to do with your database and ask me to come up with a physical model and create it. Break the database I made and have me fix it. Give me SQL to tune and improve. THAT is a test I can respect Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rachel - I think that your approach will work for you. As a > top-echelon > consultant, you are a bit above the fray. You will be selected on > your > industry reputation, and you should only consider working at an > organization > that recognizes your "brand name", because you will receive a > salary/compensation "above average" with that recognition. > For others of us that don't have presentations, books, awards, > here is > sort of how it works. A hiring manager opens a requisition with the > HR > organization for a DBA. He/she lists qualifications he/she feels are > appropriate to the position. The HR person then places > advertisements, talks > to recruiters, etc. > The critical bottleneck is the HR person ends up with 50-100 > resumes in > his/her inbox (depending on the economy, the local job market, how > complex > the requirements) and pressure from the hiring manager to send some > "qualified applicants" along. The point is that the HR person > normally does > the first cut of pulling 4-5 best resumes out of a stack of 50-100. > The job > of your resume is get you into the small stack. I would like to say > that > someone of extraordinary technical skills spends 30 minutes with each > resume, looking beyond the poor writing of a technical person and > grammatical mistakes to think of deeper issues. I would like to say > that, > but don't bet your career on it. Sometimes the hiring manager insists > on > getting to review all resumes, but HR people can be pretty > territorial about > that. More than likely a nontechnical person is reduced to looking > for: > - keywords (put Oracle and OCP in bold type, make their job easy) > - college degrees > - years of experience that appear to be relevant to the position > being > applied for. > - obvious gaps in employment history, frequent job changes > > I'm not saying that the system is fair, but just that is the way it > mostly > works. If the system doesn't work for you, it is critical that you > learn the > alternate strategies from books like "What Color is Your Parachute". > Too > often we technical people are rightfully proud of the difficulty of > learning > hard-core technical subjects like DBMS theory and Oracle, and sneer > at the > mediocrity of simple people skills like preparing a good resume and > basic > interviewing skills. Some of the most brilliant technical people I > have > worked with had the hardest time getting their next position and were > forced > to settle for a less-attractive job because of it. > > Dennis Williams > DBA, 20% OCP > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:09 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... > > I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists > of > presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I > have given and books I have written > > if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't > want > to work there anyway > > --- Jack Silvey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The question is, are you going to allow your > > clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a > > thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit > > of filth lucre? *I* ain't! > > > > ;) > > > > It is just another hoop to jump through so that a > > hring manager can say "that is an impressive hoop you > > jumped through" and you can respond "yes, and I can > > jump through some hoops for you too" and allow them to > > say "here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our > > computers." > > > > I love this job. > > > > jack silvey > > ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i > > > > > > --- Don Granaman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial > > > percentage (6%? 7%? more? I > > > can't remember now...) of their income and is > > > "required" (?). > > > > > > This new requirement for OCP is just another in a > > > long line of > > > propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending > > > attempts to suck up every > > > buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $$$$$. HR > > > likes mindless checklist > > > items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought > > > that the "need practically > > > any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant" 9i > > > OCM was going to be the > > > limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks > > > - for 9i at least. > > > This isn't about certification anymore (as if it > > > ever was), its about > > > revenue. > > > > > > Since this "new requirement" (for the moment at > > > least) doesn't apply to > > > upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know > > > if there is (or soon will > > > be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that > > > to 8i OCP obtained prior > > > to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? > > > > > > Don Granaman > > > [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the > > > evil vampire Larry's OCP > > > DBA tax] > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM > > > > > > > > > > I thought employees were not allowed to write > > > things off as business > > > > expenses... > > > > > > > > Confusedly yours, > > > > Patrice Boivin > > > > Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet > > > again > > > > > > > > Are you trying to promote it? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > > > I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it > > > can > > > > be sold to hiring managers as a sign of > > > professional > > > > competence. > > > > > > > > Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. > > > Will > > > > someone with this cerifification make $2000 more > > > over > > > > her professional life than she would without? > > > > > > > > So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of > > > > vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write > > > it > > > > off as a business expense. > > > > > > > > Good investment, easy money, instant credibility > > > to > > > > many hiring managers. > > > > > > > > jack silvey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > > > > ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
