Dear Michael and Chris, Three days after doing WOSonOS on the wednesday I stepped back in the saddle and played the Comedy Store.. Over the years I am well used to telling jokes to comics. Just for the record I can assure you it's much easier than opening space to the spacenics!
:) Phelim x ________________________________ I generally pick up emails only at the beginning and end of the working day. I am currently aiming to respond the following day. If it is urgent please call me on 07956 187298. _____________________________________ www.improbable.co.uk @openspacer On 23 Oct 2012, at 18:26, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: > > > -- > > Michael Herman > Michael Herman Associates > 312-280-7838 (mobile) > > http://MichaelHerman.com > http://OpenSpaceWorld.org > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Phelim McDermott <phe...@mac.com> wrote: >> Some thoughts Michael, >> >> >> On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:43, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: > > >>> >>> All of which makes me wonder how many "osonos" events we've really had. >>> What if we did count them up and start numbering the as we go forward, as >>> ALL having been descended from the HHO-convened "originals." And what if >>> we agreed that, in the main, the clearly visible and open heart of any >>> osonos was a chunk of space and time where it ran "by the book" and if you >>> don't see it in the user's guide, then you don't see it in the room, >>> either? Wouldn't have to be the whole event, but there could be a >>> distinction between "this is what we do because we're excited, creative >>> people and this is what we do because it's the heart of open space >>> practice." >> >> In this discussion it would really help me if people were really clear about >> when they are making generalised suggestions or clear criticisms of WOSonOS >> 2012. (I'm not sure here if this is directed at our event. ) As those who >> weren't there could think WOSonOS 2012 twelve was an event which had lots >> of extraneous stuff added to the Open space part of the event. For those not >> there I want to make it very clear. There was nothing at the event which is >> not in the handbook perhaps the wall made of scotch/sellotape as we know >> this was a solution to the site, the principles being in more than one >> language and the break out spaces being animal pictures as we couldn't stick >> things on the floor. > > sorry for the confusion, phelim... i have absolutely no comment about wosonos > 2012 specifically... never imagined anything i was saying could be read that > way cuz i wasn't there. everything i'm suggesting here is all about all of > osonos history and practice -- and all for the purpose of asking what should > happen next... not trying to fix or change anything past. > > i don't know what happened in london, don't think anything negative or > critical of your work there on the event, and like chris says, i count you > among the relative short list of brave souls who's told jokes to comics. > maybe the trickiness of your task is better captured by calling it "doing > magic in front of magicians." the hands need to be VERY quick, indeed! > > -------------------------------- > >> >>> If the experience is one of desiring a simpler execution of the basic >>> practice, then the solution is to offer to host an wosonos for yourself. >> >> Knowing what it is like on the UK scene I would say the solution is to offer >> an osonos now that WOSonOS has happened. This is certainly more possible >> after this years event. I doubt it would have been an immediately >> sustainable event or as attended if we hadn't been able to publicise it as a >> world event. Most of our support and income actually came from international >> streams. As it is we have not covered our costs by a considerable amount. If >> it had been an OSonOS I do not believe we w2ould have had the international; >> diversity we had. > > this is what i mean about the W making a difference, in that suggests to > potential participants that this one is special. i think this has underlying > reliance on and encouragement of some people being more valuable than others. > i understand that this helps pay the bills, but the other solution is to > make the event so simple that it can't possibly lose money. > > ---------- > > >>> If, however, you're from the UK, for instance, and the UK has just hosted, >>> that means you don't really have a shot at it for at least a few years. >> >> I think you now have a much better shot at running a successful OSonOS after >> what we did and I think there has been talk about this in sessions about the >> UK community. > > yes... a better shot at running an osonos perhaps, but not Wosonos... which > is but once a year and keeps moving... so follow-ons are stuck with the > budget concerns you mentioned first. my question is why do we need to twist > ourselves up to make some events more special, more expensive, and more than > a simple osonos? > > ------------------ > >>> Further, if the process of choosing a host/location looks like it's been >>> pre-determined (which it often does, based on past comments by various >>> participants), then even if somebody like Paul was willing to host and the >>> community was willing to stay in the UK for another year, he wouldn't feel >>> like he had access to the process anyway. >> >> Everyone has access to the process of opening some space. If he wants he >> could communicate with the people who had a UK OS session and talked about >> further UK events. > > i'm not so interested in UK and Paul. I'm thinking about our worldwide > community practice. I was just trying to explain the dynamic. > > ------------- > >> >> >>> Finally, if the pre-determined processing of the decision, or >>> pre-conversations, about the next invitation happen someplace other than in >>> the event, newcomers like Paul are right to say they are excluded. >> >> It was made very clear at the event that if people were considering hosting >> they would be supported to do so. The "predetermined" element or eperception >> could be that if you are thinking of doing it a TWO YEAR prep time is >> definitely helpful and so it could look like people who have been thinking >> about it for a while know something you don't. > > i continue to be baffled by why it would take two years to prepare for the > simplest meeting that could possibly work. osonos takes but a few hours to > organize, really... it's all the other agendas, like expanding practice in > underserved areas and growing local practice groups that take all the time. > i just wonder if it's best and most effective for these various missions to > travel in the same gathering. of course they'll never be inseparable, but > collegial learning, practice evangelization, and local practice group > development is a lot for one event to do. that's not what osonos was, it's > what it's become... but i don't think we chose this consciously. that's why > i'd like us to reflect on it a bit... yes it is what's happening, to some > extent, but is it what we want? > > --------------------------------- > > >>> With all these conditions present, it's quite possible that Thomas' three >>> ways of using Two Feet only make the situation worse. When someone comes >>> to the conclusion that they are stuck on the outside of the group and the >>> best we can say is "Leave if you like," that would seem a recipe for a bad >>> feeling -- especially once someone has made some investment to get to this >>> event and might feel stuck there for the two days, trying to figure it out. >> >> No one has said leave if you like in fact I think people have encouraged >> Paul to engage in a conversation about his thoughts and I continue to do so. >> Please encourage him to join this discussion here via linkedin and facebook >> where he has been posting his blogs. >> >> During the process of putting together WOSonOS 2012 we were very open in >> making a number of invitations to be involved in helping us putting the >> event on. We held two, two day open space events which the UK OS community >> were invited to. During that process which definitely was not easy some >> people joined us and supported us.. others fell away. I also communicated >> to Paul before the event about how we were organising things and offered to >> meet him. That didn't happen. > > as i was asked to be part of the florida group, i responded directly to > paul's postings by email. i've not heard anything back from him. i also > invited him to be part of the conversation for florida. but again, it's not > about paul. my point about "leaving" was in response to thomas' three > options, the last of which was "you can leave". which is true enough, but > i'm saying not perhaps very satisfying in some cases. > > --------------------------- > >>> I'm not trying to put words in Paul's mouth or speak for him... I'm just >>> saying that it's possible that the way we invite and welcome and include >>> people in wosonos conversations, including the ones about where the next >>> event(s) might be held, might be ripe for review. As we go along, and get >>> deeper in our own community practice and accumulate artifacts and habits, >>> we start to look a lot like a traditional organization -- in the sense that >>> we have an interest in stability, continuation, dependability, and such -- >>> even as we are supposedly all about emergence and making it up as we go. >> >> Likewise I'm not sure what Paul is thinking either. I have invited him to >> join us on this list as I think Artur did as well. I do know that Paul was >> interested in opening the space for WOSonOS in his own style which is to do >> it in 2 and a half minutes. So I imagine he would think my introduction went >> on a bit! (I must do some work on that). > > two and a half minutes is pretty short! i'm curious but not very excited > about what that would look like! > > ------------------------- > >>> >>> Like look at our watch midway through briefing the principle that says >>> "whenever it happens is the right time," the more habituated we become in >>> our gathering practice, the more we depend on and add to how we do wosonos >>> -- (even the W that got added a few years ago, for instance, creates >>> scarcity by giving one event some "specialness" above all others that year) >>> -- the more we add to our wosonos convening manual, beyond what's in the >>> user's guide, the more we are potentially perceived as welcomers who aren't >>> being very welcoming. >> >> I mentioned in my opening the importance of not seeing an OST event as >> something special and that "Wherever it happens is the right place" is a >> useful reminder of this to me about this. >> >>> What if we didn't have any more Wosonos events, for instance, what if we >>> just counted ALL osonos events as equal. We wouldn't necessarily celebrate >>> the "20th anniversary" but could celebrate the 20th osonos and the 30th and >>> 100th... without giving the one somehow decended from Harrison's original 4 >>> events at dulles airport any more importance than what lisa does in san >>> francisco, john does in haiti, or we've done here in chicago in the past? >>> If all osonos events were allowed to be held as equal, then anyone could >>> put one on the map and the only side conversations would be among old >>> friends deciding where they might be able to meet up. And note, too, that >>> there's nothing that says that if someone is hosting in australia, i can't >>> host an full and equal peer gathering at the very same time, in chicago. >>> neither event needs special W-ing, and anyone can choose between either >>> gathering, and be surprised by who shows up, from how far or near. >> This was suggested by Paul at WOSonOS as one less thing to do. That we >> perhaps shouldn't do WOSonOS again. A part of me thinks.. It would certainly >> save a lot of work and stress. Another part says thats a bit like saying >> maybe it would be better if we didn't have any more parties! Maybe when >> it's over its over. > > i guess i'm suggesting that we do one less thing... one less letter... drop > the W... when we started our globetrotting, we called it that to notice that > it was something bigger... now we could just tally up the number of osonos > events and number of cities or countries and simply report and celebrate > that. i don't think osonos is over, but i'd like to think that it could be > even bigger and more expansive and more connected/connecting if we could drop > the specialness of one annual event (like dropping the specialness of keynote > speakers, i think, and everybody listening to all the same stuff), if we > could invite more and more simple breakouts around the world. more parties, > not less! > > ---------------------------- > >>> These are things I've thought about for many years, and found few ripe >>> openings to discuss, in part cuz I've not been able to attend osonos >>> anywhere for some years. So I can appreciate how somebody newer to the mix >>> might feel frustrated having made an investment to join and then come to >>> the conclusion that we're as deep in our habits and rituals as any other >>> exclusive organization. More frustrating because we always seem to say >>> otherwise. Having tried at times from "within" to have these >>> conversations, I can appreciate how hard it would feel from apparently "the >>> outside." >> >> Sometimes people are on the outside because they feel excluded and sometimes >> they enjoy "the outsider" role. It has some useful things to say. This is an >> interesting topic to discuss in relation to the Law of Two Feet. > > absolutely. and... if outside exists at all. hence my "apparently". > > ---------------------- > > > > >>> >>> >>> What if....? >> >> Yep what if? > > that's what i want to find out! <grin> > > >> >> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Herman >>> Michael Herman Associates >>> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >>> >>> http://MichaelHerman.com >>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Thomas Herrmann >>> <tho...@openspaceconsulting.com> wrote: >>>> I think the Law is about action too. You can act in three ways >>>> >>>> 1. Mental movement (try to change yourself, focus and be fully >>>> present, maybe you are missing something important here) – thanks Jan-Erik >>>> for this perspective during NOSonOS in august! >>>> >>>> 2. “Intervention” into what you don’t enjoy, for example if you find >>>> the break out group too large – say it! >>>> >>>> 3. Leave and go somewhere else. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Thomas Herrmann >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Från: oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] För Chris Corrigan >>>> Skickat: den 23 oktober 2012 07:13 >>>> Till: World wide Open Space Technology email list >>>> Kopia: World wide Open Space Technology email list >>>> Ämne: Re: [OSList] Peggy plus OST Linkedin Comment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Koos...for me the law of two feet is about passion and responsibility. If >>>> you care about something, take care of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Paul may have felt that he was "taking care of it" when he produced his >>>> critiques of the event in London. Possibly. But my experience is that >>>> many people are comfortable just being in their passion about something - >>>> sometimes just ranting - and fail to join in, support, improve, help out >>>> or otherwise make a responsibility based offering to the situation at >>>> hand. While i appreciate criticism and am perfectly capable of wrestling >>>> with ideas - and in this case I even pointed out that there is much merit >>>> in Paul's observations - I nevertheless would invite consideration of the >>>> fact that if someone is sitting through an open space event and not >>>> offering responsibility, that the criticism has the feeling of being >>>> sniping from the sidelines while failing to take up the invitation at hand >>>> and it's hard to work with that. That is all. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A some level, love it or leave is also always an option, but that isn't >>>> what I'm talking about here. I'm looking for a more nuanced response from >>>> a practitioner that is clearly very familiar with the dynamics of Open >>>> Space and self organization and wondering what he did at the event to use >>>> his own power to create the experience he was looking for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> He may have done something, but as I read it, he stayed for whole thing >>>> and then wrote a fairly detailed critique of the whole experience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So. Hmmmmm. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> CHRIS CORRIGAN >>>> >>>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com >>>> >>>> +1 604 947 9236 >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2012-10-21, at 3:22 AM, Koos de Heer <k...@auryn.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the law of two >>>> feet applies. If it means as much as "This is Open Space, love it or leave >>>> it," I feel compelled to say that I don't support that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course I can walk out of a session if I am feeling that I am neither >>>> learning nor contributing. But if I have the idea that the Open Space >>>> gathering as a whole could use improvements in the way it is run, >>>> referring to the law of two feet can become a way to evade a discussion >>>> that needs to take place. It can take place at a later date, which is what >>>> is happening now and that is fine. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Koos >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Op 20 okt. 2012 om 21:23 heeft Chris Corrigan <chris.corri...@gmail.com> >>>> het volgende geschreven: >>>> >>>> The critique in the article is fine. And the subsequent link Phelim sent >>>> along is fine too. Paul's tone is a bit jarring and his argument isn't >>>> helped by making a lot of generalized statements. Also he critiques >>>> WOSonOS in a way that makes it hard to separate his critique if the event >>>> from a critique of the team, even though he later clarifies that he wasn't >>>> critiquing the facilitator. It's tricky to make a forceful and powerful >>>> critique without it seeming personal. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My response to these posts is that Paul is right in substance. In general >>>> my take in things is that the Law of Two Feet applies. If you are not >>>> learning or contributing find some way or some where that you can. That's >>>> what makes things better. Obviously expecting others to change the way the >>>> way a process seems too dependant on them is rational madness. >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> -- >>>> >>>> CHRIS CORRIGAN >>>> >>>> Harvest Moon Consultants >>>> >>>> www.chriscorrigan.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration, Bowen >>>> Island, BC >>>> >>>> November 12-15 2012 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Art of Hosting in Faith Based Communities, Salt Lake City, Utah >>>> >>>> November 28th - December 1, 2012 >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2012-10-20, at 5:09 AM, "a...@alanhalford.com.au" >>>> <a...@alanhalford.com.au> wrote: >>>> >>>> Just spent a delicious three days co-learning with Peggy Holman here in >>>> Perth then I read this - >>>> >>>> So, what's possible now? >>>> >>>> http://rationalmadness.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-tragic-re-imprisonment-of-open-space/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> take care out there >>>> >>>> alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.alanhalford.com.au >>>> 0421 475 252 >>>> skype: alanhalford >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OSList mailing list >>>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OSList mailing list >>>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OSList mailing list >>>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OSList mailing list >>>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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