Hi,
I've followed this list for a while but been quiet. Furthermore, I'm new
to OST.
I listened to David Snowden's presentation on "Making Sense of
Complexity" with great interest. He is brilliant and fun. I learned a
lot, but I think there is some 'premature convergence' in his own
thinking. It happens so easily. I always fall in that trap myself.
David seems to view the Law of Two Feet as a means to avoid conflict? My
understanding is that the law primarily is about honoring what I care
about. And I see little reason to use my two feet and avoid conflict if
I care *deeply* about something.
From my perspective, the enemy of innovation is *coercion*. That's the
opposite of the Law of Two Feet, and OST...
/Jan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bhavm...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:12:59 +0300
To: oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
Subject: Re: [OSList] Management and Organization
Hi Harold,
I did 4 days of training with Dave Snowden. He is actually quite
dismissive of a range of methods such as OST and AI, and calls the
people who use them fluffy bunnies! His style is to be quite provocative
because he wants people to wake up and think, he also calls six sigma
sick stigma. He doesn't like people who he believes are relabelling
existing methods as complexity methods.
At the same time, he recognises that all these methods have value in the
right context, and contextual applicability is a term he often uses.
I asked him about Open Space, and within his
paradigm/approach/understanding of complexity it does not fit in. His
methods try to avoid premature convergence by breaking up moments of
shared understanding or group think. His methods push people to scan
more data and possibly unrelated data by increasing confilct, etc.
So I think OST doesn't work for the way Dave Snowden wants to approach
complexity, however that is different to the question of whether it is a
method that does work in complex space. Personally I think it does when
used appropriately.
Hope that offers another angle.
Smiles Bhav...
I am grateful for ^
On 2 August 2014 09:02, Harold Shinsato <har...@shinsato.com
<mailto:har...@shinsato.com>> wrote:
Chris - thank you again for the mention of the Cynefin framework. I
very much enjoyed your youtube presentation about the framework to
the Art of Hosting Community at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRn3BM56W74. It was well worth the 55
minutes. I especially enjoyed your questions and answers section.
After I listened, YouTube presented a related video of a keynote by
David Snowden to a Lean, Agile & Scrum conference in Europe. His
talk is titled "Making Sense of Complexity".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6RfqmTZejU
I found his talk brilliant. I enjoyed the insights, but also the
challenges. David called himself a "Constructive Irritant" or a
curmudgeon. I'm not sure I'd recommend the talk to everyone in this
group - but there is one piece that was particularly confrontational
and important. I carefully transcribed it for you here. David
Snowden makes these remarks while showing a slide of a dragon
towering over two Knights, and one Knight says "Oh No! A big, evil,
DRAGON!". The other says "Quick! Somebody hold a meeting". Here is
what David says (it is at 49:05 in the talk):
"This sort of hold a meeting mentality, or worse still, I mean if
there was an Agile version of this, it would be 'Quick let's hold an
Open Space', because we can all have a nice time and nobody will be
challenged. Just to make a controversial statement: Open Space is
the enemy of innovation because it enforces consensus. There are
actually larger group techniques certainly which we and others have
developed which actually increase conflict because if you don't
increase conflict you don't get diversity and you don't get proper
testing. So the Law of Two Feet is the *enemy* of innovation because
it allows people to avoid confrontation where they need to do
confrontation. Right, it doesn't mean it doesn't have value, but
it's a contextual method."
This statement from David actually interfered with my sleep. I made
me question for a couple hours my deep emotional investment in OST.
As mentioned earlier, I saw and still see Cynefin as a way to help
promote the use of OST. Earlier in David's talk, when he described
how to work in the complex space, his recommendations sounded a lot
like an OST event. But quote I offer from him was clearly hostile to
OST. My first reaction to his "irritant" statement was that OST does
*not* enforce consensus. But other parts of his statement raise
interesting questions. Is there value in setting up large group
processes that don't allow people to avoid confrontation? Can OST
prevent needed conflict?
My take on Open Space as a method is that it has been traversing the
chasm on the innovation cycle between Early Adopter phase, and Early
Majority. I had expected Agile to help push Open Space over to Early
Majority. It sounds like OST may already be in the Early Majority
phase in the Agile community based on David Snowden's missive
against it. I've also predicted that OST will start facing open and
active hostility as it starts to break into Early Majority. David
Snowden may be some evidence this is happening.
I'm quite curious how others receive this statement against OST from
David Snowden.
Harrison, I quite enjoy what you've written, and I think there's
something in OST that most consultants and organizational
development experts are going to miss simply because the fundamental
assumptions of their traditions go 180 degrees in the opposite
direction of Open Space, wave riding, and the ancient mystery we
might now call our self-organizing universe. For me, I don't think
there is any end to the digging, because there is no way a "theory
of everything" will ever be able to capture it all. And still, there
are some of us that have not yet tired of digging. But my aim in the
digging into game theory, Agile, Cynefin, brain science, Tavistock
and group relations, sociology, psychology, etc. etc. is not "how to
deal with massive complexity ... by ... making models, and gathering
data." The joy in the digging is not to try to get to the bottom of
it. There is no bottom. There will never be a theory of everything.
But making maps, as long as we understand their fundamental limits,
is a wonderful thing. As long as we don't confuse them with the
territory.
Harold
On 7/31/14 12:59 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:
Good thinking Peggy, and having spent no small amount of time,
paper, and ink exploring the world of emergence or self
organization – I can definitely appreciate the effort. Helping
people to develop an awareness of the flow of the enterprise is
definite plus. Having said that, I find myself needing to issue
a caveat. Producing a model, even a very good model, of the flow
of self organization as it relates to complexity, is not to
suggest that we can fully understand the process, even less that
we could predict or control it. My experience has been that the
more I know, in the sense of actual experience and perception,
the less I understand. Perhaps it is the advance of senility,
but I find my rational capacity totally overwhelmed and
over-awed by the magnificent mystery of our evolving cosmos.
This is not simply the majesty of infinite space/time – but
equally the fantastic complexity, diversity and connectedness of
the smallest creatures. The Hummingbirds, for example who feed
at my window. The Paramecium (single celled protozoa that swim
in my lake). A single snow flake.____
__ __
Some might take my statement as the despairing cry of an old
man. The “old man” part is dead on... but there is no despair.
Just the opposite, in fact. It feels just wonderful! I am
reminded of conversations over the years with various “Systems
Thinking” friends. Bright people all, with enthusiasm unbounded.
They were certain that if they thought hard enough, collected
data long enough – for sure they could design the perfect
system, or at least understand the one of which they were a part
(their business, etc.). They sensed victory just over the hill,
and I surely wished them well. For myself, inspired by their
effort, I tried to do the same. But for me, the harder I tried,
the worse it got. In fact it became an infinite regression into
ultimate complexity. One could call it an exercise in despair.
But that is not how it felt... Liberation was more to the point
with the realization that you just couldn’t get there from
here...Wonderful!____
__ __
But how to deal with massive complexity in real life situations
if not by thinking about it, making models, and gathering data?
It is not that thought, models and data were somehow evil or
useless, but in terms of my quest, they only led down a rabbit
hole out of which I could not come. And the harder I tried, the
deeper I sunk... It felt just wonderful to just stop digging!
But the complexity of life remained.____
__ __
Somewhere along the line an odd curiosity captured my attention.
As our marvelous natural experiment in self organization (AKA
OST) proceeded, it dawned on me that contrary to all of my
preconceived notions, multiple groups of people of all sorts and
conditions from every part of the world seemingly engaged their
complex, self organizing world in an effective and productive
fashion without benefit of prior instruction, models of whatever
sort, intense facilitation (handholding)... In a word it
appeared to be a natural act. Even more counter intuitive
(counter to my intuition and expectations) was the fact that in
those (relatively few) situations in which either I or some
colleague had endeavored to “prepare” the participants with
conceptual models, exercises of various sorts, or explanation of
the process (other than the normal OS invitation to sit in
circle) there was no visible sign of improved performance, so
far as I could see, and in fact there was some indication of a
decline. Now, almost 30 years into the experiment I also have to
say that my most difficult groups, without exception, were those
composed of The Professionals. Those people who made it their
business to THINK about all the details (facilitators, systems
theorists, etc.). Eventually even these folks “got with the
program” and everything happened just as it usually does in Open
Space. But the shift occurred, as I saw it, only when they
stopped thinking about it.____
__ __
I think there may be a lesson here. Engaging complexity is not
primarily a rational act. Even though complexity is a basic
existential concern for all of us, right up there with Death –
the resolution to our dilemma will not be found through rational
enterprise (thinking about it). A major frustration for us all!
But the good news is that we do not have to travel that route.
Indeed we really don’t have to travel at all. We’re already
there!____
__ __
Proof is a slippery word, but I think it fair to say that the 30
year Natural Experiment of Open Space has rendered a verdict
almost as good. Highly Probable. Given our experience of 1000’s
of groups effectively dealing with complex, conflicted,
inflammable issues prepared only by a 10-15 minute
invitation/introduction...It is highly probable that the
essential skills and mechanisms were already present within the
group prior to their arrival at the circle. In short they were
“already there.” No need to think about it. Just Do it!____
__ __
Once done, it is then time for rational reflection. In truth our
innate capacity for dealing with complexity, once awakened,
flows so seamlessly that most people hardly notice. At the end
of every Open Space in my experience the people evidenced some
real sense of joy, satisfaction, completion... and little
appreciation of how it all happened. It just was. That is all
they know, and all they care to know. That status may be more
than sufficient in the moment, but it is also true that rational
reflection in all its forms (model building, data collection,
etc) can enhance the appreciation, and deepen the experience. ____
__ __
As one who has spent a lifetime doing all that “rational
activity” from model building to data collection (well, story
collection J), I can truly appreciate and applaud the effort.
Useful undertaking, I think. BUT none of that can hold a candle
to the profound sense of wonder and awe that I experience in the
silence of my not-knowing. That is truly wonderful.____
__ __
__ __
Harrison____
__ __
__ __
__ __
____
__ __
Winter Address____
7808 River Falls Drive____
Potomac, MD 20854____
301-365-2093____
__ __
Summer Address____
189 Beaucaire Ave.____
Camden, ME 04843____
207-763-3261____
__ __
Websites____
www.openspaceworld.com____
www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com>____
OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives of OSLIST Go
to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org____
__ __
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org>
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
_______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To
post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org To unsubscribe send
an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org To subscribe or manage
your subscription click below:
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org
To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
