Is this list a tyranny of structurelessness? On 6 October 2015 at 16:56, Michael Herman via OSList < [email protected]> wrote:
> Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the feeling/meaning of > it. I considered writing a longer message in the telling of this story, but > I wanted to transmit as much of the spirit/experience of it as I could. > > Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that morning. He did > just like I said, got up in a morning news circle, it was an OTgathering as > I noted but that doesn't matter, it was open space and morning news. He > said his piece and sat down. The experience for me, and others I have > learned only later, was stunning and disorienting, for sure. > > I thought to honor and convey this experience through some measure of > similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up on. The > disorienting magic of Ralph's moment. > > There are moments in open space of surprise and disconnect, maybe > frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or disorientation and even > disappointment that arise in open space. This we all know and have > experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to be solved but the > nature of the territory. It just is. > > Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know. He had something > to say and he said it. That was his only job. After that, each of us had to > figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do with his story, to decide > if it was wisdom or wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the > responsibility for finding and sharing what's true for him/her. The rest > is up to us. > > Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we all have in open > space, namely learning to trust more and more that we already are always > included in a flow that is bigger and deeper or whatever than we can see or > understand or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit > of errant and temporary mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and > can't be solved by anyone!); it's a trail marker. Which is to say about > exclusion and missing out, "welcome!" The good news is, and the bad news > is, you're in! And, it's all still happening Now. > > As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny again in the > subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again > when we expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us? Is this > not something of our central challenge, something all of us work with? The > edge of open space is an end of comfortable, conventional understanding? > Or something? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Harrison, >> >> Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do >> those things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort, especially >> searching the OSLIST archives. I guess I could eventually pick up OSLIST >> culture that way, little by little. I suppose an earnest person with loads >> of time could sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture out. The >> hard way. >> >> However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a good story >> to convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning, a middle and an end. >> >> I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain OS-mythos >> story, you usually tend to include the short list of pertinent details, the >> essential details that provide the essential context, so the reader can >> follow along, and engage. >> >> And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along, and get >> what you are referring to, and more fully understand the story, and feel >> oddly included in the story. >> >> >> Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me) arouse >> feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of membership in >> whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being referred to. Sort of an "out >> group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be >> thinking by posting random fragments of a "you had to be there" kind of >> story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also feeling these >> feelings. Or if it is "just me." >> >> And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you include >> the pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one) feel included. >> >> So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them fun, >> and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks, and for me, >> your stories make this culture easier to figure out, and navigate, and >> enjoy. >> >> >> Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness: >> >> Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true? Do these >> ideas have legs? >> >> - *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of >> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures, >> only formal ones.* >> - *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given >> group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be >> explicit, >> not implicit. * >> - *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured >> groups, which forms the basis for elites.* >> >> >> Daniel >> >> On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: >> >> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman >> >> >> >> ho >> >> >> >> *From:* OSList [mailto:[email protected]] *On >> Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList >> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM >> *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list >> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >> >> >> >> Howdy Harrison, >> >> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm very >> thankful for that info. >> >> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to notable >> OST episodes, and situations from times past... >> >> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were. >> >> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and what I >> might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.) >> >> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent to >> exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like: some good old >> basic camaraderie is taking place between some old friends. >> >> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke feelings >> of exclusion in readers who were *not* there at the time? >> >> Not sure. >> >> <CONFESSION> >> >> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing curiously odd >> feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an old OST-mythos story >> lacks explicit context. So I can follow the story, you know? The terms >> "outsider" or "clueless" or "not in the story" describe these feelings >> fairly well. "Not invited?" >> >> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of *other* members of OSLIST >> ever feel this way...or if it is "just me." >> >> </CONFESSION> >> >> Daniel >> >> >> >> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote: >> >> “Everything is moving.† .... Michael -- I remember that moment very >> well. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc, would help very much. >> But just for the record the odd phrase popped out at one of the >> International Symposia on Organization Transformation which happened to be >> taking place at a small college south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph >> said what he did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But then again a >> lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with no obvious logic train. >> Indeed it may be that the lack of logic train enables the thought? >> >>  >> >> Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for some time, >> quite unattached, and it also happened that I was working my way slowly >> through one of the masterpieces of 20th century western philosophy when >> a fuzzy connection began to form. The work was that of Alfred North >> Whitehead, and the title: “Process and Reality.†I’ve been through >> the book probably 4-5 times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t >> think I really understand it. But then again I’ve heard a number of >> people with much greater credentials, tenure, etc – say the same >> thing. But I did get that it had something to do with, “Everything is >> moving.†And the more I thought and read, the more I felt that the good >> philosopher had made a small mistake on his title. It shouldn’t be >> “Process *and* Reality,†but rather “Process *is* Reality.†>> >>  >> >> Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or perhaps I should say >> the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve all been taught that >> structure is the precursor, the “determinator†of everything. My face >> looks as it does because of my bone structure. My life proceeds the way >> it does because of my social structure. My business works as it does >> because of the organizational structure. And of course, meetings happen the >> way they do because of meeting structure, which apparently is the prime >> domain of “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t been “taught†>> all this, the primacy of structure would appear to be blatantly obvious – >> as plain as the nose on your face. >> >>  >> >> Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the blatantly >> obvious is not necessarily so. For example just looking at things it is >> pretty clear that the world is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any >> fool can see that we are the center of it all – Sun, moon, and stars >> whiz around us. But when we think about it, as we have been doing for >> the last 500-600 years, the obvious isn’t so obvious. >> >>  >> >> It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think differently – >> to the point that we begin to question the obvious, and even come to see >> things in a different way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all begins >> with the perception of anomaly. Things just don’t make sense. Our eyes >> tell us one thing... but???? And then we start making up stories to explain >> the apparently unexplainable. We imagine different ways of looking at >> things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some of those stories get >> pretty strange, but if they actually work – that is to say, help us to >> see in new and useful ways – that’s great! >> >>  >> >> There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have been >> describing. It is called Theory Building. And for whatever it is worth, >> “theory†>> comes from the Greek “*theoreinâ**€ * – to see. In a word, theories >> are ways of looking at things – likely stories you might say. >> >>  >> >> Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was starting to >> tell, to the effect that Structure is only a figment of our imagination, a >> flash frame of a moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under some >> circumstances... but always partial and in a sense illusory. What’s >> “really†>> happening is all flow. Everything is moving – That’s Ralph’s >> story, and I guess it is mine too. >> >>  >> >> So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about anomaly – >> more particularly, the anomaly of Open Space. Everything that I had ever >> learned told me that it could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) – >> and not just once, but every time, hundreds of thousands of times. >> Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me that I had to re-consider >> all those things I thought I had learned, beginning with the basics... such >> things as Structure. >> >>  >> >> Common sense would say that Open Space works because we somehow created a >> structure that enabled it to work. That’s the way things get done, or >> so I had been taught. But that’s not the way things happened in Open >> Space. Structure emerged along the way and only momentarily. Worse yet it >> (structure) seemed to have little to do with the obvious power, >> connections, creativity.... all of which created structures, and passed >> them by. And actually it always seemed to me that the “structures†I >> “saw†existed only because I wanted to see them – or perhaps that I >> “should†see them. But they were only momentary wisps, figments – >> never to be mistaken for what was really going on. Or so I’ve been >> thinking. >> >>  >> >> Harrison >> >>  >> >>  >> >>  >> >>  >> >>  >> >>  >> >> *From:* OSList [mailto:[email protected]] *On >> Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList >> *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM >> *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list >> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >> >>  >> >> you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years ago, >> somewhere, probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to the center of the >> circle and announced, all serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's >> all moving!"  >> >>  >> >> then put the stick down and went back to his seat. >> >> >>  >> -- >> >> Michael Herman >> Michael Herman Associates >> http://MichaelHerman.com >> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >> >>  >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual tyranny of >> structurelessness is to open space, again and again, until true democracy >> can emerge. >> >>  >> >> Juan Luis >> >>  >> >> *De:* OSList [mailto:[email protected]] *En nombre >> de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList >> *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19 >> *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list >> *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >> >>  >> >> Hi Daniel, >> >> Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some ways to what >> Ken Wilber wrote later, >> >> about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its own shadow, >> as well as its own gift...) >> >> So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc. >> And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how ideologically >> anti-structure it can become... >> >> to the point where some people may not even agree that OST does, in fact, >> offer a very simple and effective structure. >> >> By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people (who don't >> know about OST, and/or, who are having a power struggle around "which >> process to use", and/or.... ) might easily spending a whole weekend >> arguing *about *"how to self-organize ourselves"... with a great deal >> more pain and frustration and a great deal less value. >> >> whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear invitation has >> been extended, and, there is enough trust/suspension of disbelief so that >> participants are willing to enter into that format, >> >> then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that allows >> people to self-organize beautifully.... >> >> at least that's how i see it! :-) >> >> with all best wishes, >> >> Rosa >> >>  >> >> >> *Rosa Zubizarreta* >> >> >> *Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership Author of From >> Conflict to Creative Collaboration <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>* >> >> >> *For more resources and learning opportunities, visit www.DiaPraxis.com >> <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>* >> >>  >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS >> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen >> >> I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too. >> >> >> >> Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay: >> "... >> >> *the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of >> informal structures, only formal ones." * >> Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of the main >> points: from the essay... >> >> ï‚· *During the years in which the women's liberation movement has been >> taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on what are called >> leaderless, structureless groups as the main -- if not sole -- >> organizational form of the movement. * >> >> ï‚· *The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from a healthy >> counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess in its own right.* >> >> ï‚· *Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no such thing >> as a structureless group. * >> >> ï‚· *This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, >> and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" >> social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as >> realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for >> the strong or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others. * >> >> ï‚· *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of >> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures, >> only formal ones. * >> >> ï‚· *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given >> group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit, >> not implicit. * >> >> ï‚· *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured >> groups, which forms the basis for elites.* >> >> >> >> Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of this essay, >> here it is: >> >> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS >> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen >> http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Daniel >> http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about >> http://www.DanielMezick.com >> 203 915 7248 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> Past archives can be viewed here: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >>  >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> Past archives can be viewed here: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >>  >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> OSList mailing list >> >> To post send emails to [email protected] >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> Past archives can be viewed here: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Daniel Mezick, President >> >> New Technology Solutions Inc. >> >> (203) 915 7248 (cell) >> >> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog >> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter >> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>. >> >> Examine my new book: The Culture Game >> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the >> Agile Manager. >> >> Explore Agile Team Training >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/> >> >> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/> >> Community. >> >> >> -- >> >> Daniel Mezick, President >> >> New Technology Solutions Inc. >> >> (203) 915 7248 (cell) >> >> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog >> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter >> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>. >> >> Examine my new book: The Culture Game >> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the >> Agile Manager. >> >> Explore Agile Team Training >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/> >> >> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/> >> Community. >> > > > -- > > -- > > Michael Herman > Michael Herman Associates > http://MichaelHerman.com > http://OpenSpaceWorld.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > Past archives can be viewed here: > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >
_______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
