I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD :P :D About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all
2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are > deliberately trying to exclude people. There are a wide range of cultures > involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some > places are quite offensive in others. And email is never a good medium > for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc. > > So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when > posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in > the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and > not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males. Others > read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say... > > .hc > > > On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: > > > You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now > it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to > ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to. > > I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho > programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of > male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not > so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong > feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I > haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions. > > It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend > of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd > always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, > and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless > to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical > engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well. > > .hc > > On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I > don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties > also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and > attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not > want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's > just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two > women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real > "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I > guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to > learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't > be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's > 2007!!! Not the stone age. > > Anyway, thanks everybody. > > -Alicia > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > hey ho > > > hi roman > > > let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a > dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through > very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to > the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a > point. > > > thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism > which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we > keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. > > for example this > http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html > > If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. > to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a > deeper degree in the conversation. > It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a > funny advertisementlike max msp thread) > > I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in > Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some > practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women > that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed > and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not > 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in > our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web > programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. > > I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem > was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until > the end ;) > > since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so > > serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously > couldn't be established. > > > i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to > propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, > argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high > mountains) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha > > and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is > not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we > face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the > world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to > this. > and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like > some good internet radio > > http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php > > I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular > complaint against this list although I can remember some situations > outside the list: > > - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah > yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do > that you don't have to do that. > > -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual > artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that > women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise. > > -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting > (!) > > -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound > because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals > > but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that > participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep > on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media. > > it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that > would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around > why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces. > > > Alejandra > > > > > On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > yves, > I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe > > (maybe > > you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) > > hi David and all, > I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some > examples > of greasy jokes: > > yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this > could be a basis for a real discussion. > > > From: João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm > > - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2: > One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. > [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a > humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks] > > i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the > first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult > feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, > that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to > provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or > whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he > succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the > list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in > order to question the ongoing discussion. > > accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do > not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless > of the intention. > > > I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts > is > just a bit too much for me to keep silent. > > i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling > someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here. > > roman > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: > http://mail.yahoo.de > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > PD-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > PD-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > kill your television > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic > > > > _______________________________________________ > PD-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > >
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