I had no thought that you would be huffy, Bruce. And yeah, I know that over the last 150 years the female nude has become more erotic. I'm sure someone will point to erotic depictions of females that goes way farther back than that. What may be the first cave painting is a depiction of a vulva. It's always been with us. But that doesn't make it right.
This is all really sidestepping the issue: are photos that you post of naked and semi-naked women demeaning? The answer is: sometimes, yes, but not always. Your Torsos (even if one wasn't a torso) were beautiful and not not demeaning at all. Another comment you made is interesting: "If you believe that these folks aren't artists and that their work is exploitative and harmful to women..." I never said your work wasn't art. I think you've made a false dichotomy. Art can exploit and harm just as it can liberate and empower. The question never was, "Is it art?" It always was, "Does it objectify and demean women?" Finally, Dorrie's parents' view of all this misses my point. My question was directed at the reader and not at them. You've answered that you'd be okay with your daughter being photographed that way and I believe you. Anyone who's fine with your photos but wouldn't want their daughter in them is a hypocrite. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't know if our gulf is unbridgeable, or that enormous. You may see the light some day. LOL! Cheers, frank On 24 August, 2015 9:11:44 PM EDT, Bruce Walker <bruce.wal...@gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Frank; at least hear me out before you bow out. Don't worry, I'm >not going to get huffy, and I'm not offended by anything that has been >said. I want to remark on a couple of things you said; and a question >you asked. > >You said: "There is, quite frankly, no comparison between the female >nude in Western art and Bruce's Cabaret photos." > >I believe that you are basing this on the standard view of Western art >nudes as draped in diaphanous wisps of material, and politely and >demurely turning their faces away from the viewer. > >You are completely ignoring or ignorant of everything that has taken >place since Édouard Manet's "Olympia" (1863), and Gustave Courbet's >"L'Origine du monde" (1866). Nudes in Western art are prostitutes >gazing back at us, are powerful women, are erotic. > >You really must read this article: >http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/famous-erotic-art_n_4598450.html > > >You also asked: "And I again ask (rhetorically) who would feel good >about a daughter or (at our age) a grand daughter posing for something >like that. I don't believe that many would honestly answer that they'd >be okay with that." > >My model in Cabaret is Dorrie Mackintosh. She has two very proud >parents, both of them very supportive and encouraging of her career >choice. She's also 26 years old and doesn't have to answer to anyone. > >If I had a daughter of the age of majority who had posed for a >photographer shooting something like this, I'd be proud of her too. > >I also want to point out that among my influences and role models are >folks like Sam Haskins (Cowboy Kate), Jeanloup Sieff and Ellen von >Unwerth. If you believe that these folks aren't artists and that their >work is exploitative and harmful to women, then I'm afraid we'll just >have to remain on our two sides of the argument with an enormous >unbridgeable gulf between us. > > >On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Knarf <knarftheria...@gmail.com> >wrote: >> Thanks Dan. >> >> I said earlier that I'd keep my thoughts to myself, having already >expressed them several times but I couldn't resist engaging with Paul. >> >> My bad. >> >> What I do want to say is that I'm not censoring or telling anyone >what to post, I'm merely expressing my displeasure for what's been >posted. >> >> And I again ask (rhetorically) who would feel good about a daughter >or (at our age) a grand daughter posing for something like that. I >don't believe that many would honestly answer that they'd be okay with >that. >> >> And one more time I say, I'm done with this topic. I've made my >opinions clear, more discussion runs the risk of becoming acrimonious. >> >> Cheers, >> >> frank >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Bruce Walker >>>>>> <bruce.wal...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> A creative project that my designer and I worked on over 8 >>>weeks, >>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> 6 hours shooting, and a month waiting for the publication >>>embargo >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> end ... has finally been published. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://nifmagazine.com/cabaret-by-bruce-walker/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> An image from it will also appear in the UK print magazine >Femme >>>>>>>>> Rebelle in September. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All images: K-3, DA* 16-50/2.8 >>>>>>>>> Lighting is from three Einsteins with an assortment of mods >and >>>>>>>>> shtuff. My lighting design. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Model: Dorrie Mack >>>>>>>>> Makeup and hair: Coral Brandenburg >>>>>>>>> Designer and stylist: Eva Mocek/GearPunk’D >>>>>>>>> Assistant: Anique Alletson >>>>>>>>> Photographer and Artistic Director: Bruce Walker >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> GearPunk’D (Eva) custom made a gold jacket, punk-influenced >>>>>> long-line >>>>>>>>> corset and matching choker, shorts and pasties for Dorrie. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Comments will be warmly embraced! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> -bmw > >-- >-bmw > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >follow the directions. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
